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Subject: Simple house rules to take out the frustrating luck factor rss

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Steve Cates
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Problem: Diplomacy could cost you a ton of influence and still fail while another player pays one influence and gains two dragons.
Solution: Spending 4 influence automatically succeeds.
2
Problem: Tactic cards have a surprise factor that feels frustrating to a player that has a well laid out strategic plan.
Solution: Tactic cards are played face up when received and may be activated the following turn or later. Players may discard 1 tactic card for 1 influence.
3
Problem: Heroes can turn one reward into rune token, only if they draw the crystal otherwise it requires 3 cards AND the title card.
Solution: The first reward is the crystal separated from the deck at the beginning of the game.
 
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stephen biggs
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1) The "average cost" of a diplomacy success is 6 influence. So making the cost 4 would shift the game balence towards using diplomacy. And give the elves (who start with 4 influence) a serious advantage if they are near the hex with 2*Giants. Also, a lot of the purpose in diplomacy is not to ally with the current stack of nuetrals, but to get get the (more likly) result that they are retreated. This is probable for a cost of only 2 or 3 influence. And eventually lets you bunch the nuetrals up into stacks which are worth paying to control.
2) Concealed tactic cards seems a fair simulation of actual war.
"No plan of battle survies contact with the enemy".
I'd keep tactics cards the way they are.


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Andrew
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Should be called arbitrary house rules that drastically change the game.
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ŁṲÎS̈
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There's 4 cards out of 30 that will give a successful diplomacy attempt. Shouldn't the average cost be 7.5?
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mateo jurasic
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they are just suggestions

things you could try would be

the next season card is revealed during the previous season (helps people prepare for the next season). if you want a little suprise, then you can look at 2 possible next season cards, and only one of those is randomly chosen, so you have a good idea whats coming up, but not entirely sure.


If you want to make diplomacy more predictable, you should take into account the number of neutrals...
ie diplomacy always succeeds if you pay 1 influence for every two triangles, one influence for every one square, and 2 influence for every hex neutral.


putting a flat fee of 4 (or any number, for that matter) for ANY number and type of neutrals seems random and unbalanced.

For quests... just give everyone 3 or 4, and let them choose 2 to start
similar for objectives, rewards and heroes

All of these things make the game less random and more predictable..

presonally, I like randomness, as it gives EVERYONE a chance to win, but thats just me.



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Scott Lewis
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monteslu wrote:
There's 4 cards out of 30 that will give a successful diplomacy attempt. Shouldn't the average cost be 7.5?

Except the number you attempt in a row changes the odds from a flat rate. If you spend 6 influence, based on the way the fate deck shrinks, I believe the net total odds are about 1/6 (16%, if I recall). This 16% also includes the chances of pulling more than one "good", or exactly one "good" - it's just the overall chances of succeeding on a full Fate deck.


Overall, I don't like these house rules at all. Too arbitrary and game-changing.
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stephen biggs
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monteslu wrote:
There's 4 cards out of 30 that will give a successful diplomacy attempt. Shouldn't the average cost be 7.5?

Thanks, your quite correct, just how you pay 7.5 influence would be interesting. Cut some of the influence tokens in half perhaps
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Nate Merchant
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sigmazero13 wrote:


Overall, I don't like these house rules at all. Too arbitrary and game-changing.


Agreed. There IS chaos in the game, but if you know what you're doing (impossible for new players), it becomes about risk management.

Tweaks to the game ARE needed; wholesale changes are not.
 
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stephen biggs
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The only house rule I see a need for so far is to change the sequence is which home locations are chosen. Currently player-2 gets second choice of race & first choice of start location. Which gives the 2nd player a clear advantage over other players e.g. player-4 gets worst race & 3rd worst start location.
I'd house rule that home locations are chosen in reverse player order.
 
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sigmazero13 wrote:
monteslu wrote:
There's 4 cards out of 30 that will give a successful diplomacy attempt. Shouldn't the average cost be 7.5?

Except the number you attempt in a row changes the odds from a flat rate. If you spend 6 influence, based on the way the fate deck shrinks, I believe the net total odds are about 1/6 (16%, if I recall). This 16% also includes the chances of pulling more than one "good", or exactly one "good" - it's just the overall chances of succeeding on a full Fate deck.


It's cards not dice, I knew someone would post this response. Let's start a new thread about it devil
 
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Scott Lewis
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monteslu wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
monteslu wrote:
There's 4 cards out of 30 that will give a successful diplomacy attempt. Shouldn't the average cost be 7.5?

Except the number you attempt in a row changes the odds from a flat rate. If you spend 6 influence, based on the way the fate deck shrinks, I believe the net total odds are about 1/6 (16%, if I recall). This 16% also includes the chances of pulling more than one "good", or exactly one "good" - it's just the overall chances of succeeding on a full Fate deck.


It's cards not dice, I knew someone would post this response. Let's start a new thread about it devil

I wasn't saying that, I was just pointing out why it wasn't just a raw 7.5
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David Hoffman
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I think one of the cool things about the Fate Deck is, given its small size, it's possible to, with some ease, track those four cards and make your decision.

So, if the deck's just been shuffled, you know there are four cards which give you a success versus twenty-six that will fail for you. You can decide to take the risk -- or not.

Conversely, if the deck's about to exhaust and you haven't seen those cards, the risk is possibly lessened.

I believe this is on purpose and, while some may not like it, it adds a nice strategic element to the game for me.
 
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Steve Cates
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Natus wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:


Overall, I don't like these house rules at all. Too arbitrary and game-changing.


Agreed. There IS chaos in the game, but if you know what you're doing (impossible for new players), it becomes about risk management.

Tweaks to the game ARE needed; wholesale changes are not.

I agree but I think my ideas don't really change the game drastically. Clearly they put more power in the hands of building influence and less on collecting tactic cards. Uthuk wouldn't be too far behind in the start because they could always trade tactic cards for influence with my second house rule. At the same time, with the house rules Tactic cards still help defend your territory and you still don't know who will be the victim. If somebody has scorced earth in front of them, I would think that would scare your opponents off and give you an advantge anyway without the cheese factor.

Of course people that enjoy experience games won't like these tweaks, I however, want a little less chaos. To each his own.

I like the idea of using more neutrals, so I may have picked 4 as a little low but I think it works. 6 would probably scare people away from using diplomacy.
 
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Scott Lewis
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#1 and #2 aren't "tweaks" - they are HUGE changes. Automatic influence for diplomacy? That changes the odds for trying 4 influence (assuming a full fate deck) from about 10% to 100%. And that means the jump from 3 influence to 4 influence is astronomical.

With that rule, I don't think many players would even bother trying for 1-3; even if they didn't have the full four, they'd be much better off saving up for it. Neutrals will go from being hard to recruit to ridiculously EASY. And it gives the Elves a huge boost, as they could recruit Neutrals automatically on their very first action.


#2 is also huge - many of the Tactics cards, if you know your opponent has them, lose a lot of their potency. The element of surprise would be gone, and thus Tactics cards (the main strength of the Uthuk) would be diluted.


#3 is more of a tweak, as all you are doing is guaranteeing the first person to get a reward gets a Shard. But then you aren't fixing any "luck problems", because now, the first person who happens to be close to a relatively easy quest just gets a free rune. And that can suck if the next player has an equally easy quest but got shafted just because he went second.


While whether these changes work for your group to make the game more fun or not is obviously subjective. But #1 and #2 especially are more than just minor tweaks. They would drastically change the way the game is played (especially #1)
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Steve Cates
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On #2 I also had the rule the allows a player to trade tactics cards for influence so that every player has equal access to 4 influence. Uthuk wouldn't be behind, on the contrary, they would get to look at the cards before they decide to turn them in for influence. I think Utuhuk has a disadvantage on starting influence as it is and this gives them a little bump.

I don't think I would spend 4 influence in the early game anyway, probably for nothing less than a dragon and a couple triangle unit. You're right. I'd never trade 3 influence for a chance when 4 is a sure thing but that was the goal of the house rule to eliminate the frustration factor. Losing 3 influence for 3 turns with nothing to show for it sucks big time.

Does the game change? Yes. Is it a HUGE change? I think that's a little bit of an overstatement. It's not like throwing out the fate deck for dice or something.

On #3 maybe I was misunderstood, every player would get a crystal for their first reward and have a chance to claim a dragon rune with it. Sure the person that draws a quest farther away may have a tougher time getting it home but that's a little more acceptable calculated risk. You can trade out quest cards or even gain them with a city first while your hero trains up a couple turns.
 
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Andrew
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If everyone's first reward is a shard, what would stop a player from cherry picking other players' heroes instead of questing? You know you are on at least even footing with them, because their reward is not a weapon.

I think these are huge changes. Ultimately, as much as I would hate it, swapping out the fate deck for dice wouldn't change my strategies that much. The only things I pay attention to the fate deck for right now are diplomacy and questing, and I don't usually attempt diplomacy more than once a game, if that. I would do a great many things differently if I could swap out tactics cards for influence at any time, I knew what all my opponents' tactics cards were, and I knew my opponents knew what my tactics cards were. I would also probably treat the quest phase much differently if I knew that none of my opponents' heroes were stronger than mine, and I didn't have to fear coercion.

These are very large changes to the way the game plays and while you are welcome to use them, I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole.
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Eric Kuha
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XAos wrote:
The only house rule I see a need for so far is to change the sequence is which home locations are chosen. Currently player-2 gets second choice of race & first choice of start location. Which gives the 2nd player a clear advantage over other players e.g. player-4 gets worst race & 3rd worst start location.
I'd house rule that home locations are chosen in reverse player order.


Exactly which race is the "worst" race? Based on everything I can see, they all have strengths and weaknesses and favor different play styles.
 
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brian bochinski
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Quote:
These are very large changes to the way the game plays and while you are welcome to use them, I wouldn't touch them with a 10-foot pole.


did i just hear a dnd reference? lol
 
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Andrew
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It's actually a fairly common expression (even if I haven't heard it in a while), though it did make me think about D&D when I wrote it.
 
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Tom Haesendonckx
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Something that feel strange is that Heroes can move through areas containing loads of enemy troops without any risk.

There should be a small chance that they are captured or something.

This makes running around a little risky.

Also, I would love to see some 'leaders' or heroes that have more of an effect on battle (like they have in A Game of Thrones for instance). You could have the choice of using your heroes in battle or not...taking the risk that they would die or be wounded/captured...

Does anyone else have this feeling?
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I thought about it a little, but there's so much going on, I'd hate to add another check for something.

It did seem that just having the other players' heroes out there posed a risk for having to duel when you just needed to make it to the other side of the board to complete a quest.
 
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mateo jurasic
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[q="Silverwings"]Something that feel strange is that Heroes can move through areas containing loads of enemy troops without any risk.
There should be a small chance that they are captured or something.
This makes running around a little risky.

Also, I would love to see some 'leaders' or heroes that have more of an effect on battle (like they have in A Game of Thrones for instance). You could have the choice of using your heroes in battle or not...taking the risk that they would die or be wounded/captured...

q]


All of these things exist

If you run your heros in enemy controlled territories, they can be captured/stolen with the coercion tactics card

a several heroes have abilities that destroy enemy units

there are several reward cards that damage or rout enemy units


but consider... why should a thief, or a dude with a red panda, or some ugly orc really be able to lead armies? These "heroes" are not generals or leaders in any way. They are adventurers. In regards to theme and character... it wouldn't/shouldn't work

Now in terms of gameplay, thats up to you. Personally I like it the way it is, and the more I play, the more I prefer the way they did heroes and diplomacy... things I didnt like when I first started playing.
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mateooo wrote:

but consider... why should a thief, or a dude with a red panda, or some ugly orc really be able to lead armies? These "heroes" are not generals or leaders in any way. They are adventurers. In regards to theme and character... it wouldn't/shouldn't work


Good point.

They should have just been called adventurers instead of heroes from the get go. Definitely would have made the theme fit the mechanics better.
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Scott Lewis
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Silverwings wrote:
Something that feel strange is that Heroes can move through areas containing loads of enemy troops without any risk.

There should be a small chance that they are captured or something.

This makes running around a little risky.

I think the Coercion tactics card makes having your heroes run around in enemy territory plenty risky.
 
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Yes Scott, my friend learned about the Coercion card last night; the hard way ninja He also learned about Ambush. ninja Sadly, shockingly, I learned about Mordrog and Batlemage Jaes abilities the hard way too.

I tell ya, every time I see someone complain about how heroes dont seem to interact with the rest of the game, I want to take a Mad Carthos hero card and give them dozens of paper-cuts with it. This "crying wolf" about lack of hero intereaction is noobish, inaccruate, and is driving people who are on the fence about buying this game away. Not to mention, having heroes interact more (especially with battles) would mega-unbalance the game imo.
 
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