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Subject: Putting us out of our misery... Rules Sudden-Death rss

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Pierce Ostrander
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For those of us who find this game incredibly boring after the mystery is gone.... The game needs a sudden-death provision that is triggered by the revelation of all Cylons.

I’m thinking: End the game with a die roll.* If the modified die roll is less than or equal to the amount of least-remaining resource then the Humans win, if not, Cylon victory.

Modifiers would include:

minus 50% of the distance to “Kobal” already covered (FRD)
Plus 1 for each super-crisis card not yet played

Throw the bone. Terminate the misery before it starts.

Edit: Let's say that the "final round" is triggered by the revalation of the last Cylon. Then, you play one more time around the table, giving the last revealed Cylon player one more turn.

What do you think would be the impact of such a rule?
 
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Jason Beck
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But isn't part of the fun those crazy games where the humans just need to hear that last blessed "JUMP!" away from the Cylons who are closing in around them?

Just an opinion, of course, but I don't think the game ceases to be fun after all the Cylons are revealed =)
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B C Z
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No thanks.
Some of the best end games were when all the Cylons were plotting the Human's demise and the Humans, now sure they could trust each other, were just trying to figure out the best way to get the heck out of dodge.
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Cameron McKenzie
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If you feel that the game tends to drag after the cylons reveal (or sometimes, before the cylons reveal) try my shorter game variant. It does its best to eliminate the less interesting parts of the game and keep things exciting and quick, but still balanced.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/486613/ultra-short-game-...
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Pierce Ostrander
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DCAnderson wrote:
byronczimmer wrote:
No thanks.
Some of the best end games were when all the Cylons were plotting the Human's demise and the Humans, now sure they could trust each other, were just trying to figure out the best way to get the heck out of dodge.


I've noticed one of the annoying weaknesses of this game, is that depending on various random factors you can either end up with an intense nail biter of a game, or a totally slow meandering game where nothing particularly eventful happens.

And I don't think there is any one clear way to just house rule that away.


Golly Geee Dan, I think I just proposed one...

Care to take your own crack at it? Or you could just keep putting up with the annoying weaknesses and several hours of boredom. snore

DCAnderson wrote:
That seems like you would just end up with Cylons timing their reveal for when they get the best modifiers on the roll, which would create an even lamer situation.

"Ok, I've got X amount of bonuses, and Y amount of penalties, giving me Z % of winning the die roll. Hmm, everyone already knows I'm a Cylon, but I think I'll chill in the brig anyway till such and such happens so then I'll have Z+13% better chance of winning."

Try to tell me that would not be lame.[/b]"


Well, one man's "lame" is apparently another man's salvage attempt. Exactly those kinds of calculation are the core of nearly every game we play!

However, I really don't ever think this would be a factor since "chillin in the Brig" is SOOOOO God-awful Boring that no one would do it. The "I'm so friggin bored" impulse would override the desire to optimize your roll.

DCAnderson wrote:

Or even worse, on turn 1:

"I think I'll take my chances with the roll, I reveal as a Cylon!"


That's just silly.

First, in most games there are two Cylons and even with one, they usually don't even know it until the second half of the game and

Second, anyone who would do that doesn't really want to play this game. They would be over at the other table playing LCR.
 
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Pierce Ostrander
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DCAnderson wrote:
On top of all that, the entire strategy of when to reveal or not to reveal is based on knowing when you can operate more effectively as a revealed Cylon.

If you never get to do anything as a revealed Cylon, then it distorts the whole strategy.

And finally, the biggest most obviously dumb thing about this:

Making the whole game come down to a single die roll is really really dumb.

"Ok guys, we've been kicking the crap out of the Cylons this game. They barely touched us at all. So when we roll this die, we'll be fine as long we don't roll a 1"

*roll*

"Oops, rolled a 1... Wow this game is real turd isn't it?"


Okay Dan, we have your opinion. Thanks. I could counter both of your last two posts point by point... and I believe there is a counter arguement, but you would disagree again, so I'm not going there.

You obviously like the game well enough the way it is to put up with the boredom of "lost hours" of sub-par experiences. I don't. I'm trying to fix it.

Is there anyone else out there, like me who wants to help me try to solve the problem that I have with the game?

Just thumb Dan if you are a "keep it like it is" fanboy please...
 
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Pierce Ostrander
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DCAnderson wrote:
Someone is touchy.

Just because I don't like your idea doesn't mean I am a "keep it like it is fanboy".

I genuinely agree that games can get boring due to certain factors, and it would be interesting to see a good solution to those problems.

I don't think your solution adequately addresses those issues and will likely create more problems than it solves.

I offered constructive criticism of your idea and you got all offended and accused people of being fanboys if they disagree with you.


Dan,

I'm not offended. You have an opinion, I disagree.

Constructive criticism takes the nub of the idea and modifies or improves it. Negation is not constructive.

To me the term "fanboy" is not a pajorative... it is an honerary title. I'm a fanboy of several games. Anyone who is active here will acknowledge their fanboyness or is in denial.

I did not do a very good job framing this discussion... I'll try it
here:

- Most acknowledge that BSG is an "experience game"
- An experience game is one that is more about enjoying the process than investing a lot of emotional energy in the outcome.
- During an experience game, if you are no longer enjoying the experience it is better to end it than to continue.

If you agree with this premise, and you acknowledge the problem I am trying to fix(and might find value in a reasonable solution that we might arrive at) then please post here and help me work something out.

I obviously enjoy the game enough to try to fix it (for me, anyway)

Edited to bold and underline...
 
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Ron D
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The premature ending idea sort of takes all the fun out of the Super Crisis cards for the last Cylon. There's no chance to wait for the best opportunity to pile on a Super Crisis immediately after some other Crisis put the humans in a bad situation.

Also, ending with a die roll sort of takes all the fun out of the whole game up until that point.

If you feel the game isn't fun after the Cylons aren't revealed, maybe this isn't the game for you. This isn't a pure deduction game, but it sounds like that's what you want. You might have better luck playing a different game instead of monkey-wrenching this one.

Also, Dan's points have been far more reasonable than yours, which makes your comment about being a "keep it like it is" fanboy sound really douchey.

You need to accept that if you post an idea on here, people might not like it. Some people will even be critical of it, especially if it is a bad idea. You asked a question: "What do you think would be the impact of such a rule?" You've gotten a number of responses that essentially say that the impact of such a rule would be to make the game much worse. Instead of accepting the criticism that you asked for, you've started getting defensive and rude.

I think there are other places on the internet you could go that would only allow positive responses to your posts. Have you posted this variant at one of those websites?
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Chris J Davis
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fubar awol wrote:
DCAnderson wrote:
On top of all that, the entire strategy of when to reveal or not to reveal is based on knowing when you can operate more effectively as a revealed Cylon.

If you never get to do anything as a revealed Cylon, then it distorts the whole strategy.

And finally, the biggest most obviously dumb thing about this:

Making the whole game come down to a single die roll is really really dumb.

"Ok guys, we've been kicking the crap out of the Cylons this game. They barely touched us at all. So when we roll this die, we'll be fine as long we don't roll a 1"

*roll*

"Oops, rolled a 1... Wow this game is real turd isn't it?"


Okay Dan, we have your opinion. Thanks. I could counter both of your last two posts point by point... and I believe there is a counter arguement, but you would disagree again, so I'm not going there.

You obviously like the game well enough the way it is to put up with the boredom of "lost hours" of sub-par experiences. I don't. I'm trying to fix it.

Is there anyone else out there, like me who wants to help me try to solve the problem that I have with the game?

Just thumb Dan if you are a "keep it like it is" fanboy please...


I am far from a "keep it as it is fanboy". Please see file:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/filepage/51073/battlestar-galac...

Yet I have thumbed his post and will join him in saying that having the entire game come down to a single die roll is really, really dumb.
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Jason Beck
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Is there something that you feel specifically makes the game boring after the revelation of all the Cylons?

It is certainly true that, once they're all revealed, the humans can optimize their play because they know whom they can trust and whom they cannot, but this is (theoretically) counter-balanced by the stronger moves that revealed Cylon players can make against the humans.

Is the problem just the one DCAnderson mentioned above, that sometimes there are stretches of boring crises where the board is clear?

I mean, I know from personal experience (which was what I was alluding to in my original response) that, even with the Cylons revealed, a couple of well-timed (or poorly-timed, depending on your perspective) Cylon attack cards can turn the game into quite the nail-biter.

Perhaps if there was something that specifically bothered you, rather than just "the mystery being gone", it would be easier to address?
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Pierce Ostrander
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O.K. I get it, you disagree. Move on.

The purpose of this thread is not to invite you to convince me I'm wrong. It's to help me solve the problem with this game. If you don't see the problem this is not the thread for you.

The fun part of this game is the "wearwolf" part. The rest if it is repetative turn-the-crank proceedure. If that's not what you think, then once again, simply thumb the first guy who responded... please don't hyjack my thread or become a troll. I think that's a reasonable request.

I'd like to hear from people who DON'T disagree - the ones who are interested in testing this idea or improving it. Those 325-plus people who rate it 5 or below for reasons similar to mine.

 
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Benjamin Tyler
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I doubt those 300+ people look at these forums.
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fubar awol wrote:
O.K. I get it, you disagree. Move on.

The purpose of this thread is not to invite you to convince me I'm wrong. It's to help me solve the problem with this game. If you don't see the problem this is not the thread for you.

The fun part of this game is the "wearwolf" part. The rest if it is repetative turn-the-crank proceedure. If that's not what you think, then once again, simply thumb the first guy who responded... please don't hyjack my thread or become a troll. I think that's a reasonable request.

I'd like to hear from people who DON'T disagree - the ones who are interested in testing this idea or improving it. Those 325-plus people who rate it 5 or below for reasons similar to mine.



My question to you, is if you like the werewolf aspect of the game, why don't you just play werewolf? I mean why go through with the whole ring-a-ma-roll of crisis checks and piloting vipers around galactica if you're not going to see it through to the end? You're right that BG is an experience game and what you're proposing (the rolling the die to see who wins) goes against the experience of overcoming the cylons or dying at their hands.

But if you're still adamant on altering this game, perhaps you could do something that shortens the jump track for the humans and something else that gives the cylons a slight advantage, maybe they can choose 1 resource to decrease every jump? Just a suggestion.
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Wence the Wanderer
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Colonial One wrote:
But isn't part of the fun those crazy games where the humans just need to hear that last blessed "JUMP!" away from the Cylons who are closing in around them?

Just an opinion, of course, but I don't think the game ceases to be fun after all the Cylons are revealed =)


i agree... the last 15 minutes are usually the best. take that away and i would probably not play the game.

Vollick1979 wrote:
My question to you, is if you like the werewolf aspect of the game, why don't you just play werewolf? I mean why go through with the whole ring-a-ma-roll of crisis checks and piloting vipers around galactica if you're not going to see it through to the end? You're right that BG is an experience game and what you're proposing (the rolling the die to see who wins) goes against the experience of overcoming the cylons or dying at their hands.

But if you're still adamant on altering this game, perhaps you could do something that shortens the jump track for the humans and something else that gives the cylons a slight advantage, maybe they can choose 1 resource to decrease every jump? Just a suggestion.


there is a pretty well thought out short game variant that I'm sure is posted around here somewhere. my brother designed it. i dont remember the specifics but essentially you play to 3 jumps, distance 1 doesnt clear ships, distance 2 is like normal, and on distance 3 you gain 1 or 2 resources of admirals choice. all the resource values are altered for balance. if you want specifics shoot me a private message, I'll get him to copy&paste it to you when he gets up.
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Basar Cenik
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DCAnderson wrote:


Or even worse, on turn 1:

"I think I'll take my chances with the roll, I reveal as a Cylon!"


 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Wence wrote:

there is a pretty well thought out short game variant that I'm sure is posted around here somewhere. my brother designed it. i dont remember the specifics but essentially you play to 3 jumps, distance 1 doesnt clear ships, distance 2 is like normal, and on distance 3 you gain 1 or 2 resources of admirals choice. all the resource values are altered for balance. if you want specifics shoot me a private message, I'll get him to copy&paste it to you when he gets up.


LOL Mike, I already posted a link it to it a bit further up, but thanks for looking out for me.

As for the OP, I have no problem with people making house rules that make the game more enjoyable for themselves or their group of friends, but when you post on the variants forum, you should expect feedback, both positive and negative. If people don't like an idea, you can use the negative feedback to identify what aspects may be improved.

In this case, I find it particularly disappointing that the last cylon to reveal doesn't have anything to do after revealing. He basically just has a button that lets him end the game at his own discretion and nobody else's. The variant also makes the game length incredible variable, as some games involve cylons revealing quite early, and sometimes you can go the entire distance to Kobol without the second cylon revealing.

In my opinion, if the problem is that the game tends to drag on for a while after cylons reveal (and I actually DO agree that this is the case), a good solution is to make the game shorter overall. Since the most exciting moments of the game often happen toward the middle (people accusing one another, cylons preparing their betrayal and reveals, etc.) shortening the game overall tends to cut off the less exciting beginning and ending of the game and put people in this "middle of the game" mindset for the whole duration.
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Pierce Ostrander
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Vollick1979 wrote:

My question to you, is if you like the werewolf aspect of the game, why don't you just play werewolf? I mean why go through with the whole ring-a-ma-roll of crisis checks and piloting vipers around galactica if you're not going to see it through to the end? You're right that BG is an experience game and what you're proposing (the rolling the die to see who wins) goes against the experience of overcoming the cylons or dying at their hands.


The obvious reason: theme, bits, color

I disagree with the last part of your statement though. It doesn't "go against". The Cylons still get to be Cylons and do their thing - you are still rewarded for progressing toward Kobol. My variant just terminates the game before it becomes a grind.

My complaint about the game is not that I hate all of it. It is that it is so long and procedurally repetative that the game wears out it welcome long before it is over. The fun-to-time ratio is too low. The game is fun, it just needs to be shorter to improve the ratio.


Vollick1979 wrote:
But if you're still adamant on altering this game, perhaps you could do something that shortens the jump track for the humans and something else that gives the cylons a slight advantage, maybe they can choose 1 resource to decrease every jump? Just a suggestion.


Thanks for a constructive contribution!

Once again, as an experience game - the outcome is not as important as it is in a "regular" game. So rolling a die to end it when it becomes a grind isn't that big a deal (to me).

Edit: Perhaps the way to go is to allow any player to "call a vote" at any time... If at least half of the players and at least one Cylon and one Human want to end the game.... then throw the die as modified.

That way, if at least half the table has had enough, it's over and no one need suffer.




 
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Pierce Ostrander
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MasterDinadan wrote:
LOL Mike, I already posted a link it to it a bit further up, but thanks for looking out for me.


I saw your post Cameron... and read the link and printed the rules. Thanks for your work on them. I plan to try them.

MasterDinadan wrote:
As for the OP, I have no problem with people making house rules that make the game more enjoyable for themselves or their group of friends, but when you post on the variants forum, you should expect feedback, both positive and negative. If people don't like an idea, you can use the negative feedback to identify what aspects may be improved.


Yes, but only if it goes beyond total negation. What I was objecting to here was the "echo chamber of negation" and total lack of serious consideration.

Obviously there are those that feel that the idea does not merit serious consideration. Fine, got it. Thumb the negator and move on.

However, it seemed to me that the early poster wasn't even thinking my idea or hs comments through... he was just throwing as much shit at the wall as he could to see if it would stick and then calling it "constructive". uh... not exactly.

MasterDinadan wrote:
In this case, I find it particularly disappointing that the last cylon to reveal doesn't have anything to do after revealing. He basically just has a button that lets him end the game at his own discretion and nobody else's.


Not true - he gets one more turn.

MasterDinadan wrote:
The variant also makes the game length incredible variable, as some games involve cylons revealing quite early, and sometimes you can go the entire distance to Kobol without the second cylon revealing.


Good point. I see how your variant deals with this. Yours is a better solution,

MasterDinadan wrote:
In my opinion, if the problem is that the game tends to drag on for a while after cylons reveal (and I actually DO agree that this is the case), a good solution is to make the game shorter overall. Since the most exciting moments of the game often happen toward the middle (people accusing one another, cylons preparing their betrayal and reveals, etc.) shortening the game overall tends to cut off the less exciting beginning and ending of the game and put people in this "middle of the game" mindset for the whole duration.


Thanks for showing up and commenting! You are the person who I needed help from... someone who actually thinks the game needs a fix.

I'll send you a playtest report when I try your variant.

How many times have you tried it with the rules in their final (current) form?
 
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Three times I think, but unfortunately only three-player games. I don't get a lot of chances to play these days. The rules are probably slightly rougher on humans than the original game, but every time we've played has been very close and exciting for everybody.

In a full length game, I usually start to get bored right around the third jump, so I felt this length was ideal.
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fubar awol wrote:
For those of us who find this game incredibly boring after the mystery is gone.... The game needs a sudden-death provision that is triggered by the revelation of all Cylons.

I’m thinking: End the game with a die roll.* If the modified die roll is less than or equal to the amount of least-remaining resource then the Humans win, if not, Cylon victory.

Modifiers would include:

minus 50% of the distance to “Kobal” already covered (FRD)
Plus 1 for each super-crisis card not yet played

Throw the bone. Terminate the misery before it starts.

Edit: Let's say that the "final round" is triggered by the revalation of the last Cylon. Then, you play one more time around the table, giving the last revealed Cylon player one more turn.

What do you think would be the impact of such a rule?


Well, let me move on a bit from this. In my experience of creating variants -- mostly for personal use -- the key factor for me has always been: decide what problem you want to fix, and drive the variant from that ... no matter how dramatic the changes are required to be. Don't look for shortest path necessarily, but look for most complete and easiest path to get you the game experience you want.

Now, if it was the case that your main complaint was about length, then shortening the game through variants might solve your problem. But I don't think that's what you're after. I think that you feel that the best part of the game is when you're trying to figure out who the Cylons are, and once that's settled the rest of the game is just simple, standard, and uninteresting -- or at least less interesting -- mechanical gameplay.

Which explains the reactions to your post and your reactions to them, because sometimes the end game is the most interesting and tense because of the humans trying to fight their way to survival. But that doesn't interest you as much, and so no matter how good that portion is you won't like it.

The issue is that the game is designed so that the deductive portion is subsumed under the part you don't like. Cylons are supposed to reveal when they can do the most damage and kill the humans. In a recent PBF game, both Cylons revealed on the first turn, slaughtering half the civilian fleet. That, to me, was a great and intense game as the humans tried to recover from that and deal with DIRECT Cylon interference. The thread is here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/4080136#4080136

I suspect that you wouldn't find that game interesting, though (read the thread to see if it sounds appealing, though) because of the lack of deduction. But, again, the game is built that hiding -- for Cylons -- only is there in order to hurt humans more.

Recognizing that, it seems to me that you need to do something about THAT, to make hiding more primary than destroying the humans. That requires far greater changes than simply rolling a die when all the Cylons reveal and thus ending the game. Thus, my suspicion is that length is not your problem, but that once the Cylons reveal what you like about the game goes away. And, again, that requires a major shift in the game.

So, if you want to embrace that, let me toss out some ideas off the top of my head:

1) New victory condition: If both Cylons are revealed or in the brig at the end of the game, the humans win. However, if there is at least one Cylon not revealed and not in the brig, and either morale or population is in the red, the Cylons win.

What this does is give Cylons reasons to not reveal and to stay hidden -- ie not overplay their hand -- but forces them to not just pretend to be human since they need resources to go down, And if the humans just brig indiscriminantly, they'll probably lose.

2) If both Cylons are ever revealed, the humans win automatically. This allows a Cylon player who knows that they won't win or stay out of the brig to just end the game, avoiding the whole "Wait until the end" thing.

This might work, but it's just off the top of my head.
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Gerry Smit
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Rules Sudden-Death "BSG Express?"
Full disclosure: when the flames started I just stopped reading and started scrolling down. But then started again cause, well, I don't know, something caught my eye, or maybe ideas started showing up.

There are lots of suggestions on how to shorten the game. But here's a different take. For whatever reason, when playing the game folks either didn't shorten it, or not enough anyhow, and now find that "time's up" and "we've got to go home". How to decide that kind of a problem?


The OP's suggestions might be a good way to resolve "from that point".

Or this might work: "BSG Express".


Start turning up Crisis Cards in front of each player, going clockwise around the board. Start with whoever was due to go next.

FOR EACH CARD:

1) Resolve crisis:
Choices offered by the crisis are made as normal. If a skill check is involved, then use this resolution: in front of a non-brigged human, "pass", otherwise "fail".

Only apply results that affect resources and token locations
(ships, characters, etc)


2) Cylon Activations: Resolve them as follows:
i-Raiders) Follow programming as normal. Resolve Die rolls without rolling, instead as follows:
- - half hit, round down.
- - further, if the activation is on a humans turn, subtract the number of human pilots from the "hits".

ii- Basestars) Cylon Turn: all hit. Human Turn: half hit, round down.
- in all cases, subtract one hit per two blue cards drawn in the human team. IE if you've got Chief, -1 hit. If Chief, Dee and Baltar are human, -2 hits.

iii- Heavy Raiders - move as normal
iv-Centurions) move as normal. Due to their persistant on-going menace, do the following "As you play each subsequent crisis card, play a chip per purple card drawn by that player (if human). Remove a centurion every 5 chips."

3) Jump Prep/Jumping.
i Prep) move the Jump Prep if the icon warrants it, regardless of team
ii Jump) Auto-jump only. Draw and Resolve top Destination Card (only).


There. If the humans win the "express" game, then , well, it means they probably would have won. If the cylons win the "express" game before arriving at Kobol or New Craprica, then they probably would have won. Otherwise "too close to call".

If you've got even MORE time, allow the player's non-action abilities to be used. (Roslin chooses Crisis, for example. Or Helo re-rolls, Starbuck tosses a crisis ONCE, Boomer decides a crisis ONCE, etc).


What else?

Ah, I'm missing unrevealed cylons. Okay, modify above as follows:

Unrevealed cylon is a HUMAN until, on their turn, they reveal. Resolve the reveal as per the loyalty card as far as any effects vs a token or a resource. From then on, including THAT crisis card, the player is now a Cylon. So an unrevealed Cylon's skill checks from a crisis card would pass, and if they were a pilot they would negate a Raider hit. Once they reveal, that stops happening. Hmmm. But they could be choosing non-optomim choices, and also tanking their non-action OPG's.... Hmmm.

I'm gonna have to play this at home.
 
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Pierce Ostrander
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I played Masterdinadan's [thread=4676793]short game variant[/thread] (see above) with 6 players tonight.

It worked well. The humans lost with an FTL jump attempt roll on the minus 3 population spot for the third jump (In Cameron's variant, you play three jumps and the humans win or lose on the final jump).

If the humans had made the die roll, they probably would have won.

Ironically, the game came down to a die roll.

The climax of the game was a massive accusation-fest after one of the players looked at another player's hand right before the second jump. It was great.

I don't see any need to modify Cameron's variant. I'll use it again.

There was one minor change that most folks would catch: because the Sympathizer card does not go into the deck (in your rules it is just randomly assigned after the second jump), when the initial loyalty deck is made up, the players need to add one extra "you are not a Cylon" card so there is one card to pass out to each player during the second distribution.

Other than that, great work! Thanks for coming up with a workable short game variant.

Foob
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