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Subject: For the love of god... STOP MESSING WITH THE RATINGS. rss

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Steen Bang-Madsen
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Over the past month, Puerto Rico and Agricola have swapped places a number of times. I seriously doubt that this is an entirely natural evolution of the ratings. Someone out there is making an effort to influence the ratings, (EDIT start) by creating multiple accounts (EDIT end), to make them match their personal view of which one should be number one.

STOP DOING THAT.

If your favourite game is not at the #1 spot, then too bad. That's the way democracy works.

If you keep it up, you are screwing up something good. And that makes you EVIL.

End of rant. Just needed to get it off my chest. Thank you.
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P.D. Magnus
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Stony wrote:
Someone out there is making an effort to influence the ratings...


It isn't evil to try and influence the rankings. Everytime I rate a game, I mean to influence the rankings a tiny amount!

As for why Agricola and Puerto Rico have swapped back and forth - I don't know, but it doesn't hurt anything. The rankings are a helpful guide to games that maybe I should check out. But the difference between #1 and #2 is no big deal.

Added, for good measure: ...but if Space Hulk passes Agricola, I'm quitting BGG! (Looks around.) Is that no longer a meme? Oh. Is it still OK to link to Busen Memo?
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Paul DeStefano
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Stony wrote:
Over the past month, Puerto Rico and Agricola have swapped places a number of times.


Awwww, COME ON ALREADY.



WHO CARES
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This site needs a forum where we can put the faux offended so we can ignore them.
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hatemachine wrote:
This is silly. Who cares?

Oh yeah, and...


Sir, I tip my hat.





I'm really trying to give a toss about the game rankings, I just can't.
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This site needs a forum where we can put the faux offended so we can ignore them.
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Max
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Stony wrote:
I seriously doubt that this is an entirely natural evolution of the ratings.

So what you're saying is that your rant is based on "serious doubt", but not "facts". I seriously doubt that you've given me as much GeekGold as you should. Can I turn that into a rant?
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Tim Stellmach
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I hear that there are decafinated brands that taste just as good.
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Shardeen Mehdi
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for the love of god.. stop talkin bout this. who cares, its not like its gonna make any diff
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Brad Miller
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I think that the real issue here is...wait, hang on a sec.














Sorry had to change my rating for Liberte and Steam down to twos.

Can't remember what I was going to say...
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Brad Miller
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I think that the real issue here is...wait, hang on a sec.














Sorry had to change my rating for Liberte and Steam down to twos.

Can't remember what I was going to say...
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What does a deity have to do with ratings?
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Matthew M
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Moved to BGG General
 
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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pmagnus wrote:
It isn't evil to try and influence the rankings. Everytime I rate a game, I mean to influence the rankings a tiny amount!

You give your vote, and thereby participate in the election. Thats fair game. Entering a big box with a lot of bogus entries is not.

maxmaven wrote:

So what you're saying is that your rant is based on "serious doubt", but not "facts".?

Ok, let me rephrase that. It's a fact that someone is autogenerating numerous dummy users for the sole purpose of affecting the top rankings. I'm certain that the two issues are connected.

So yes, I happen to care about the fate of the ratings, as I actually find honest ratings useful. I worry about people screwing this up, eventually entering more bogus users with bogus rankings than there are real user and rankings.
EDIT (added): It seems this possibility is either lost on people, or they just don't care.

I guess I should just give it up, and say my farewells to the usefulness of the ranking system, and just stop rating any more games... *shrugs*
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James Ludlow
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Stony wrote:
It's a fact that someone is autogenerating numerous dummy users for the sole purpose of affecting the top rankings.


What is your source for this fact?
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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jdludlow wrote:
What is your source for this fact?

Numerous users have been created. Most likely by some script. One such user could be named anti_jdludlow and would only rate a single game a one to even out the ten rated by jdludlow. Sad but true. Aldie tried to make an algorithm to filter these out, but thats an ongoing struggle. Eventually the bogus users will be created with numerous ratings to cover up the shill/antishill, and unless Aldie can find a countermeassure, the ranking system is toasted. Simply because a few users don't give a damn about everyone else.
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Matthew M
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The "anti_" shills was an isolated incident that was dealt with some time ago, and I see no evidence that its been replicated.

-MMM
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Daniel Danzer
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I understand the difference between # 1 and # 340 (obviously many people are of the same opinion and for one or another reason, the first game is more respected, it does not tell me, that my all-time No. 1 is at # 340), but I cannot see any difference between the "rank" of two games alternately changing # 1 and # 2. Both have a rather high average, both are well-known to anybody here, both have found their audience - what are we talking about?

It`s even more stupid, as we are not at the Olympics here. The ranks are not ones of measured "performance" and the # 1 is not the runner who makes it at least a milli-second faster than the next.

The same with all these recent "tournaments". You always compare games and people which are absolutely un-comparable. You throw in a swimmer, a tennis player and a soccer-goalkeeper and ask: Who is the best ???

I don`t have the time to think, rant or care for these things. I do rant about the habit of moe and more people, who obviously don`t want to share about experiences, strategies, thoughts and insights into boardgames, but are excited about the last "who`s best"-competition.

Suggestion: Keep the average rating at the game pages, keep the "hot list", keep everything but get rid of the ranks.

Just delete them and the rank list.

This would be a great service for BGG, Aldie.
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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Octavian wrote:
The "anti_" shills was an isolated incident that was dealt with some time ago, and I see no evidence that its been replicated.

It has been done (at least) once to futher some individuals end. And prior to that, we had Jeff Widderich, that did the dummy users manually. History shows that it will be done again. It may already have been done again. Maybe for a different reason next time. Maybe for the same. Once you've got the script to do the work, it won't take that much more effort to give them better usernames, and add some more ratings to cover up the shills. If you add IP-spoofing, then how are you to detect it? (apart from the users *probably* won't log in again in the future)

duchamp wrote:
Suggestion: Keep the average rating at the game pages, keep the "hot list", keep everything but get rid of the ranks.

Just delete them and the rank list.

This would be a great service for BGG, Aldie.

This would achieve nothing. With a 99.9% certainty, we would start seeing people datamining, and create geeklists with "Top 100 of the week".

My concern is not if this or that game is number 1. My concern is that the ratings are being manipulated by some egomaniacs out there, rendering them unreliable. Rankings is just one of the possible reasons for them to do so. Who is to say the manipulating should stop at pushing number 1 down to number 2. I happen to dislike Powergrid. Why not create enough users to push it out of the top-50 or further? Once the coding is done, it's just a matter of processing power, time and an extra effort to make the antishill go unnoticed.
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Daniel Danzer
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Stony wrote:
duchamp wrote:
Suggestion: Keep the average rating at the game pages, keep the "hot list", keep everything but get rid of the ranks.

Just delete them and the rank list.

This would be a great service for BGG, Aldie.

This would achieve nothing. With a 99.9% certainty, we would start seeing people datamining, and create geeklists with "Top 100 of the week".


Sure people would still compare the average rating and create stuff you mention here. But it would be with a different (less) emphasis behind it. Being the "official" Number 1 makes this as important as it is, leading to the "misuse" of accounts and so on you are ranting about.

Stony wrote:
My concern is not if this or that game is number 1.

Well, mine is.
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Russ Williams
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Stony wrote:
It has been done (at least) once to futher some individuals end. And prior to that, we had Jeff Widderich, that did the dummy users manually. History shows that it will be done again. It may already have been done again. Maybe for a different reason next time. Maybe for the same. Once you've got the script to do the work, it won't take that much more effort to give them better usernames, and add some more ratings to cover up the shills. If you add IP-spoofing, then how are you to detect it? (apart from the users *probably* won't log in again in the future)

I agree it is possible that people will continue to create shill accounts, either automatically or manually, to raise or lower the rating of some specific game(s).

What I don't understand is how a polemical thread like this will help, or what you expect the admins to do differently from what they're already doing.
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Stony wrote:
Someone out there is making an effort to influence the ratings, to make them match their personal view of which one should be number one.

STOP DOING THAT.

If your favourite game is not at the #1 spot, then too bad. That's the way democracy works.


The way democracy works?!

The evil of trying to influence public opinion so they match their personal view of who should be number 1...

Isn't that, at it's core, the true definition of democracy?

If not, someone better tell the media, marketers, politicians, lobbyists, and other assundry "opinion makers" that they are screwing with the democratic process and "if their favorite isn't at the #1 spot, then too bad!"

*Coming from a staunch independent whose opinion has been swayed by someone somewhere to the "jaded" setting.*
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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ThatFedoraGuy wrote:
Stony wrote:
Someone out there is making an effort to influence the ratings, to make them match their personal view of which one should be number one.

STOP DOING THAT.

If your favourite game is not at the #1 spot, then too bad. That's the way democracy works.


The way democracy works?!

The evil of trying to influence public opinion so they match their personal view of who should be number 1...

Isn't that, at it's core, the true definition of democracy?

If not, someone better tell the media, marketers, politicians, lobbyists, and other assundry "opinion makers" that they are screwing with the democratic process and "if their favorite isn't at the #1 spot, then too bad!"

*Coming from a staunch independent whose opinion has been swayed by someone somewhere to the "jaded" setting.*

HUH!?! Did you actually read the thread before posting this? Maybe you should go over it again, because you obviously missed something.

I have *NO* issues with people "voting", by giving a game a rating. But I do have issues, when someone hands in a crapload of votes. You don't? You're from Florida, right? Disregard the last.
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Steen Bang-Madsen
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russ wrote:
What I don't understand is how a polemical thread like this will help, or what you expect the admins to do differently from what they're already doing.

Frankly, I'm not sure. The odds of the culprits actually reading this post aren't very good, and even if they do, there's a fair chance they will ignore it.

Maybe a guy like Octavian will take the thoughts, and brainstorm a little on possible countermeassures before the damage is done.

I just won't sit on my hands, and let the culprits think it's okay. I think they are evil.
 
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