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Subject: Do you ever let others take back moves? rss

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Steve Gilbert
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We've had a good discussion on 'Do you ever let others take back moves?' in another thread. I thought it deserved it's own conversation. So what do you think? Would you? Have you in the past?
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James Ludlow
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Yes, because it speeds up games if people aren't paranoid about making an error. Usually, as long as no one else has acted yet, it's fine.

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As long as the next person hasn't moved yet, I think it's fine. However, once someone else has made a move, it would take a lot to convince me. Especially if it requires rolling back other people's moves, etc.

But, I'm a little more forgiving on that first "learning" game and would be more flexible. At the same time, on that first learning game people don't care as much anyway, they're just getting a feel for the game and the rules, so they'd be less likely to want to take back their move.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
As long as the next person hasn't moved yet, I think it's fine. However, once someone else has made a move, it would take a lot to convince me. Especially if it requires rolling back other people's moves, etc.

But, I'm a little more forgiving on that first "learning" game and would be more flexible. At the same time, on that first learning game people don't care as much anyway, they're just getting a feel for the game and the rules, so they'd be less likely to want to take back their move.


+1
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Eric Phillips
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
As long as the next person hasn't moved yet, I think it's fine. However, once someone else has made a move, it would take a lot to convince me. Especially if it requires rolling back other people's moves, etc.

But, I'm a little more forgiving on that first "learning" game and would be more flexible. At the same time, on that first learning game people don't care as much anyway, they're just getting a feel for the game and the rules, so they'd be less likely to want to take back their move.


+2
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Seth Owen
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sgilbert wrote:
We've had a good discussion on 'Do you ever let others take back moves?' in another thread. I thought it deserved it's own conversation. So what do you think? Would you? Have you in the past?


It depends

It can depend on the game. Some games have a rule that once a piece is moved you can't take it back (chess, some wargames).

It can depend on the context. In a casual game (even of chess) I may let an opponent take back a move. If it's a historical wargame where we are playing ore for the recreation of the event than competition we may allow take backs.

It can depend on why. I'll usually allow someone to take back a move that breaks the rule unless the game situation has moved too far along to make that possible.

As a general rule I don't like to be a hard ass about it unless really necessary. In a tournament setting you really have to live with your blunders.

It can become annoying and unfair in a wargame that has a lot of pieces if you allow it because somehow the pieces don't end up where they began. Some guys feel like they need to see the board situation after their move before they will commit to it, but it can really get out of hand. I've seen guys that rearranged their attacks so much that an attack that wasn't possible at the beginning of their move became "possible" by the end because some unit got shifted a little bit closer to the action. I won't say they cheated, but it's a natural human inclination to give yourself the benefit of the doubt.

Obviously in a game that relies a lot on hidden information such as most card games and block wargames it isn't fair to take back a move that has revealed some information unless it works against the player who wants the take back.
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Gary Sonnenberg
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My wife has done this fairly regularly lately.

I still win.
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Basar Cenik
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jdludlow wrote:
Yes, because it speeds up games if people aren't paranoid about making an error. Usually, as long as no one else has acted yet, it's fine.



seconded
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The best games are when every body plays the best they can. Unless you're hell bent on winning (and thus either a left-brain maniac or a total jackass), I don't see the big deal in letting others take back a move unless it would mess up other plays. It's doesn't mean I like it, but if it keeps people happy and having fun, then the choice is easy to make. Of course I don't play tournaments and things like that, where I imagine this would be entirely inappropriate.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
As long as the next person hasn't moved yet, I think it's fine. However, once someone else has made a move, it would take a lot to convince me. Especially if it requires rolling back other people's moves, etc.

If it's a player's first game and the move(s) can be backed out easily, I'm okay with it. Obviously, if you reveal hidden information or are playing a complex game that can't be backed out easily and reliably, no.

JohnnyDollar wrote:
But, I'm a little more forgiving on that first "learning" game and would be more flexible. At the same time, on that first learning game people don't care as much anyway, they're just getting a feel for the game and the rules, so they'd be less likely to want to take back their move.

I'm admittedly a bit raw on this issue just now, but I really dislike the assumption that the first play of a game is a throw-away game. I have won first games often against experienced players, and not luck-fests, either. This assumption leads to not explaining the game well because it supposedly doesn't matter. Or--my raw point--some impatient player saying, "Come on! Let's play! You aren't going to win anyway!" No, I'm not if you don't shut the **** up and let me hear the rules!
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David Culp
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Im a pretty lite and forgiving gamer and usually let people take back moves IF the next player has not started their turn or taking back the move does not affect the next player or players. I consider it bad form to ask to take back a move after someone else has physically began their turn (moved from the thinking stage to moving pieces stage), especially if the person realizes their bad move because of the moves of the next person.

However, as someone else mentioned previously I am very forgiving in a learning game, especially if I am the experienced person and the person wanting to take back the move had a rule or game mechanic confusion.
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Kirk Thomas
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In our group, it's pretty much a house rule that you can take back a move as long as nothing has happened that would influence that player's move - most notably, of course, the next player starting to make his/her move. As somebody else mentioned, anything to keep the game moving is good, and knowing that people aren't going to be sticklers when it doesn't affect the outcome does just that.
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I support it take-backs. It speeds up the game if players aren't worried about "touch move" type rules. If they make a move, then realize their error, then it's usually fine.

The only time I am against it is if hidden information is subsequently revealed. Too late, then!
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Yes.

I play games mostly for social reasons, so letting someone take a move back is not a big deal for me.

I've let people take moves back in the past, I've taken moves back myself on occasion, and will do it again.

And sure, there are exceptions, to the above, but in principle I'm ok with taking moves back.
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Stew Woods
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One takeback per game per person - enforced sporadically with acknowledgment that the social experience is primary...
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Jeff Timothy
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lokides wrote:
One takeback per game per person - enforced sporadically with acknowledgment that the social experience is primary...


I agree, usually one per person is cool. If someone keeps doing it eventually others will give the "you're a goof, no more" look. Does depend on the person playing, the situation and how it affects others. If it's a blatant use of "let me change my move because some else has now done something I don't like" we don't allow it. If it's a case of "oops, I made a mistake, is it cool if I change my move before we continue" it's usually allowed.

If it's a seriously heavy game with crazy competition happening it's usually assumed that any mistake you've made is your own fault.

~Jeff.
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Michael J
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Quote:
In a casual game (even of chess) I may let an opponent take back a move.


For me, the definition of a game is that it's casual. I have no problem with people fixing moves because of errors, mis-interpretation of a rule, or because they made a really stupid mistake. I want to win against the best my opponent has to offer, and I want them to have fun playing and not spend the rest of the game stewing over what I didn't allow them to do. The bottom line is that I really don't care what happens in the games I play. I'll roll with it.

I do have exceptions, however. In tournaments, competitions, when playing for money, or when all players have agreed ahead of time, I have no problem not allowing someone to correct their mistakes. Some other situations I wouldn't feel it acceptable would be changing course after a dice roll, changing a decision after causing an opponent to reveal hidden information, or changing a move after other players have moved. Exceptions to these situations exist as well, but there's no point in going on. Each situation is different, and a hard and fast rule makes no sense.
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Derry Salewski
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I like the advantage I have in games of being able to plan ahead. If I can see four moves ahead, and my opponents can all see three moves ahead, I wouldn't want to let them keep taking back moves after they made it and their three turn foresight kicked in to see the defeat I'd already planned for them a move ago!

My little brother plays the wrong consume card in Race for the Galaxy fairly often, though. When I can see it's clearly a mistake, he gets to take it back.

:)

*Edit:* I really like it when games put rules in place to say when moves are done or not.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
As long as the next person hasn't moved yet, I think it's fine. However, once someone else has made a move, it would take a lot to convince me. Especially if it requires rolling back other people's moves, etc.

But, I'm a little more forgiving on that first "learning" game and would be more flexible. At the same time, on that first learning game people don't care as much anyway, they're just getting a feel for the game and the rules, so they'd be less likely to want to take back their move.


+(x)

I would also say that I tend not to take back my own mistakes.
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CJ
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Within reason.

Last night I refused to allow someone to redo their retreat in C&C:Ancients on vassal because I had moved to follow up and declared the number of dice to roll. My opponent had realised his mistake and wanted to change but did so as a result of my taking advantage. That is where you have to man up and take it on the chin in my opinion.

That said, I am usually fairly generous and will allow people to move units they had forgotton, even if they had ended their turn - indeed, I will often remind them so. The danger, of course, is not allowing people to take advantage of your good nature by manipulating it to their tactical advantage, or to the disadvantage of the time it takes to play. At some point, people need to stop crying and accept the consequences of their decisions.
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If the player is new at the game, I'd probably allow them to take back a bad move. As long as nobody else has moved yet, then it gets harder to do a rollback.

But if the player has played the game lots of times, then it's a definitive "No. You should have known better."
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Joe Thomas
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We do when we're learning a new game, or someone (mostly me) is teaching a new game.
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Tony Chen
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If no new relevant information have been introduced, yes.
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Yes. Not always, but yes. The newer a player is to the game, the more leeway he has to do this. Seasoned players of the game in question are expected to know what they're doing and therefore don't get this privilege.

It also depends on the game in question and on the environment. Chess has a 'touch is move' rule and during bridge at the club you cannot take back a card that you have played.

As people have said, it also depends on whether new information has been introduced. Note that this can also be information that has been introduced by the player himself. In partnership or team games, playing a card shows the rest of your team that you have that card; if you subsequently take it back, you have given unfair information to your team members.


---------

Case in point: our first games of Dominion at the club. One player had taken the Militia (discard down to three cards) several games in a row and loved harassing the other players with it. In the fourth game he was on the receiving end of the Militia and discarded. His turn was next, and then he said: "Oh, wait, I have a Moat in my hands - so I didn't have to discard" and made moves to take back his discarded cards. To which the rest of the table protested; he himself had used the Militia several times, so he aught to have known what the card did and how to protect yourself. Besides, the moat only works if you show it, and he didn't - he might have wanted to keep his hand secret until his turn.

So, no. His experience with attack cards meant that he got less leeway in correcting errors regarding these cards.
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sgilbert wrote:
We've had a good discussion on 'Do you ever let others take back moves?' in another thread. I thought it deserved it's own conversation. So what do you think? Would you? Have you in the past?


Yes, especially if they are new gamers or when we play a game for the first time.

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