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Labyrinth: The War on Terror, 2001 – ?» Forums » General

Subject: Map Sheet or Map Board? rss

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Jason Martin
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I was just about to pre-order this, but I am not comfortable paying a premium price for a paper map, no matter how good a game is.

Anyone have any info on this?
 
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Sylvain Martel
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Anjohl wrote:
I was just about to pre-order this, but I am not comfortable paying a premium price for a paper map, no matter how good a game is.

Anyone have any info on this?


I fail to see how 38$ is a premium price, but I can understand your reluctance to paper map.

So far I'd say expect either a paper map or a cardboard map since there is no mention anywhere of a mounted map for this game on GMT website

GAME CONTENTS

* One Counter Sheet
* 22x34 inch Map
* 110 Playing cards
* Rules Booklet
* Two Player Aid sheets
* One Solitaire Play sheet
* 30 Wooden Cubes
* Four 6-sided dice
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Vasilis
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I don't care about the price but I do care about the map quality. Paper map means a no-buy for me.
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Ethan Tan
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If it's cardboard, they would have said Deluxe Map, so it does seem like it will be paper, as of now.

Don't worry, it's something you will get used to. I used to complain a lot too, and at some point, I decided GMT's games are too good to miss out on, and bought myself a poster frame to house the maps.
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Sylvain Martel
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Bowmangr wrote:
I don't care about the price but I do care about the map quality. Paper map means a no-buy for me.


Paper map means a no buy for many people, but it's all about economic. Labyrinth probably won't get a print run big enough for a mounted map to be economically viable for GMT.

And it's kind of a catch 22 too. People won't pre-order because it's a paper map, but if the pre-order was standing at 2725 instead of 725, you can be pretty sure they would upgrade to mounted board.

I got a 24*48 plexi for 13$ for myself, and it fix any downside paper maps have.
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Blake Phillips
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honestly I never understand this attitude. I am a designer and an artist... for me presentation and the graphics are key and help my enjoyment of the game. So... paper map? I don't care - if the graphics are good... I'll slip it under some plexi or put it in a frame. Why miss out on an excellent game simply because of a paper map? Seems like shooting yourself in the foot really. But of course this is one of the topics that comes up over and over again. Some can deal... some can't.


Anjohl wrote:
I was just about to pre-order this, but I am not comfortable paying a premium price for a paper map, no matter how good a game is.

Anyone have any info on this?
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Joel Toppen
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Guys,

I talked with Tony Curtis about components two weeks ago. The map will be cardboard stock (same stock as GMT's deluxe maps and as that which came with Hellenes: Campaigns of the Peloponnesian War, and Asia Engulfed)

This stock is much more durable than paper but it is not heavy-duty like say, SUCCESSORS or Washington's War.

I understand why some folks may have a problem with this but it's a matter of cost. Small print runs mean lighter-stock maps. Plain and simple. The preorder price is very, very reasonable for this game with the components that come with it.

-Joel

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Yes, the price is reasonable, but I'd willingly pay more for a mounted map.
 
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Borat Sagdiyev
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I wouldn't. cool
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Joel Toppen
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Here are some of my own personal thoughts on map stock. Personally I don't really care about the stock so long as the game is a quality game.

Cardboard map (GMT Deluxe Style) stock pros:

* Low price even on small (compared to Euro game) print runs.
* Durability is much better than paper.
* Looks and works nice under Plexiglas or in a frame.
* Warping poses no playability issues as the map will lay flat under Plexi

Cons:

* You can play without Plexi, but it usually doesn't lay flat enough--at least not for my tastes.


Mounted map stock pros:

* No plexi required, but see below.
* Good durability.
* Has a nice quality feel about it.

Cons:

* Mounted maps can warp. Warpage on mounted map can be a serious problem as even plexi won't hold the thing flat--I had this happen with Conflict of Heroes and also with DVG's Alexander solitaire game (both companies graciously sent replacements to me)
* Cost is more expensive--especially on a smallish print run.
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Jason Martin
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Lofl. "Some can deal...some can't"

THAT sir makes me VERy angry. Using your logic, why buy a game in the first place? Why not just play print and play, or pirated DIY versions exclusively?

If *I* am spending *MY* money, *I* get to decide what said money is *worth*.

THAT is not open to debate. It's a subjective and personal choice. PERSONALLY, since a game that I buy should be a showpiece as well as a great game, a paper board is just completely unacceptable. One of the few wonders of capitalism is that you get to be as "anal" as you want.

Yaboo wrote:
honestly I never understand this attitude. I am a designer and an artist... for me presentation and the graphics are key and help my enjoyment of the game. So... paper map? I don't care - if the graphics are good... I'll slip it under some plexi or put it in a frame. Why miss out on an excellent game simply because of a paper map? Seems like shooting yourself in the foot really. But of course this is one of the topics that comes up over and over again. Some can deal... some can't.


Anjohl wrote:
I was just about to pre-order this, but I am not comfortable paying a premium price for a paper map, no matter how good a game is.

Anyone have any info on this?


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Joel Toppen
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Let's please keep the conversation civil guys. I'd like to avoid any flame wars here, ok? Thanks!

Jason,

I do hope the info I provided was of use to you. And I do hope you will make the purchase. It really is shaping up to be a great game, but I understand if you prefer to play only on mounted mapboard.

-Joel
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Blake Phillips
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No no no... that is what I meant - some can deal with paper maps - some don't want paper maps... and as you say, it is a personal choice. Not bashing your choice - for me personally it doesn't keep me from buying a game - especially a good game - and this certainly looks like a very promising game that I am not willing to pass by due to a paper map. Not sure how you got to "Using your logic, why buy a game in the first place?", or "Why not just play print and play, or pirated DIY versions exclusively?", but no disrespect intended. If the graphics of the map are good - paper is fine by me is all.

Sorry Jason Martin and Joel - unintended consequence of a post.

Anjohl wrote:
Lofl. "Some can deal...some can't"

THAT sir makes me VERy angry. Using your logic, why buy a game in the first place? Why not just play print and play, or pirated DIY versions exclusively?

If *I* am spending *MY* money, *I* get to decide what said money is *worth*.

THAT is not open to debate. It's a subjective and personal choice. PERSONALLY, since a game that I buy should be a showpiece as well as a great game, a paper board is just completely unacceptable. One of the few wonders of capitalism is that you get to be as "anal" as you want.

Yaboo wrote:
honestly I never understand this attitude. I am a designer and an artist... for me presentation and the graphics are key and help my enjoyment of the game. So... paper map? I don't care - if the graphics are good... I'll slip it under some plexi or put it in a frame. Why miss out on an excellent game simply because of a paper map? Seems like shooting yourself in the foot really. But of course this is one of the topics that comes up over and over again. Some can deal... some can't.


Anjohl wrote:
I was just about to pre-order this, but I am not comfortable paying a premium price for a paper map, no matter how good a game is.

Anyone have any info on this?


 
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Jason Martin
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Oh, no offense taken. I just don't appreciate anyone telling me what my money is worth.
 
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Sylvain Martel
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Anjohl wrote:
Oh, no offense taken. I just don't appreciate anyone telling me what my money is worth.


That's pretty much the definition of taking offense. whistle
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Stefan Pielhau
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joel_m_toppen wrote:

Cardboard map (GMT Deluxe Style) stock pros:

* Looks and works nice under Plexiglas or in a frame.
* Warping poses no playability issues as the map will lay flat under Plexi

Cons:

* You can play without Plexi, but it usually doesn't lay flat enough--at least not for my tastes.


I have yet to find a good reason to rate these "Deluxe" maps over paper ones. As you said, you have to lay the cardboard map under plexi so it will lay flat. Without plexi these maps are even worse than backfolded paper maps. And what I really find annoying about Deluxe Maps is the cut made halfway through the map so it can be folded up better. This will (if not cut properly - and so far no map is cut properly!) leave an awful gap right through the map's artwork. Even under plexi the cut parts will not align 100% unless you tape them to the table. So where is the advantage of these maps over paper maps?? Paper maps are in fact better than Deluxe maps!

Mind the gap!
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Joel Toppen
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Quote:
So where is the advantage of these maps over paper maps??


As noted in my earlier post (which was a list of pros and cons, not a "this is better than that" post), I like the fact that the cardboard is more durable than paper insomuch as it is less prone to tear at the folds (at least in my experience). I always use plexi so the difficulties you note are not a problem with me.

Of course the day we all agree on the "best" map stock will be the day we all agree on the "best" game of all time.

-Joel
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Chadwik
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Paper maps are in fact better than Deluxe maps!

After having played extensively on both, I'd have to agree.

For my money, a mounted map is going to be superior almost every time, even if that forces a higher price point. I value quality in fewer purchases over straight quantity of purchases -- for example: assuming equally-enjoyable game play, I'd rather buy two $75 games with all high-quality components than three $50 games with lackluster components. Paper maps would be my next choice, with "deluxe" maps being tolerated only if game play is superior.

Which is too bad: I thought I'd heard somewhere that this game would be shipped with a mounted board. Luckily I've had a chance to sit down and play this game and I've found the enjoyability is enough to overlook the "deluxe" treatment of the map, so my preorder shall remain in effect.
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Jason Martin
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Jugger wrote:
joel_m_toppen wrote:

Cardboard map (GMT Deluxe Style) stock pros:

* Looks and works nice under Plexiglas or in a frame.
* Warping poses no playability issues as the map will lay flat under Plexi

Cons:

* You can play without Plexi, but it usually doesn't lay flat enough--at least not for my tastes.


I have yet to find a good reason to rate these "Deluxe" maps over paper ones. As you said, you have to lay the cardboard map under plexi so it will lay flat. Without plexi these maps are even worse than backfolded paper maps. And what I really find annoying about Deluxe Maps is the cut made halfway through the map so it can be folded up better. This will (if not cut properly - and so far no map is cut properly!) leave an awful gap right through the map's artwork. Even under plexi the cut parts will not align 100% unless you tape them to the table. So where is the advantage of these maps over paper maps?? Paper maps are in fact better than Deluxe maps!

Mind the gap!


For me a boardgame needs a board. That is all. As in, a 4-sectioned board that folds up via a slit in one side. That is a basic requirement for any BG purchase I make, since it's part of the defintion.

This is the same reason I would never buy a wargame that just has rules and a map.
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Quote:
This is the same reason I would never buy a wargame that just has rules and a map.

So you'd shoot yourself in the foot for lack of a shoe to keep it warm?

Notice that in my previous post I said: "...a mounted map is going to be superior almost every time...". I worded it that way intentionally, because often times wargames are such large beasts that mounted maps would skyrocket the retail price -- not to mention the price to ship an individual game -- to ridiculous proportions.

The recently released Battle For Normandy game, for example, has something like 26 square feet of maps! (five 22" x 34" mapsheets) I'd rather not guess at the extra money, weight and increased box size it would take to mount 26 square feet of board. In this case -- and in that of manywargames -- paper maps simply make economical sense so as not to push the retail price beyond what most gamers would be willing to pay.
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Jason Martin
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
This is the same reason I would never buy a wargame that just has rules and a map.

So you'd shoot yourself in the foot for lack of a shoe to keep it warm?

Notice that in my previous post I said: "...a mounted map is going to be superior almost every time...". I worded it that way intentionally, because often times wargames are such large beasts that mounted maps would skyrocket the retail price -- not to mention the price to ship an individual game -- to ridiculous proportions.

The recently released Battle For Normandy game, for example, has something like 26 square feet of maps! (five 22" x 34" mapsheets) I'd rather not guess at the extra money, weight and increased box size it would take to mount 26 square feet of board. In this case -- and in that of manywargames -- paper maps simply make economical sense so as not to push the retail price beyond what most gamers would be willing to pay.


I buy games as both "toys" and as showpeices, in that build quality is very important to me. And while I don't have anything to justify, many feel like I do.

The tacile elements of a game are as important as the art design, and IMHO more functional.
 
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Sylvain Martel
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Then hope the game sells well and wait 3 years for the deluxe version. For someone who doesn't feel he should justify his choices(and you are right on this), you sure are spending alot of time doing just that.
 
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Jason Martin
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Kinwolf wrote:
Then hope the game sells well and wait 3 years for the deluxe version. For someone who doesn't feel he should justify his choices(and you are right on this), you sure are spending alot of time doing just that.


Not justifying, clarifying/explaining. Plus, I am subscribed, so the "new item" draws me in, and then I feel compelled to reply. Unsubscribed now. Feel free to debate other peoples purchase choices among yourselves ;)
 
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Sylvain Martel
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I think he took offense
 
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T. Wesley
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It's not that difficult to mount a mapboard (sheet) yourself. Some contact adhesive and the right materials - I like to use "extra" maps from old Avalon Hill games - and voila, mounted map. You just have to figure out the split & fold before cutting anything.
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