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Subject: Special power - Adulating rss

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Alexander Fick
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Adulating (4):
Once per Troop Redeployment, you may place a statue token (of which there are four) in a region you currently occupy that doesn't contain a statue token. If you do, collect one bonus coin. A region with a statue grants an extra bonus coin during each turn's scoring. Statues are permanent.


I like the idea of making certain regions more valuable. The scoring is roughly based on alchemy, but it could probably use tweaking. There are plenty of ways to do this:
- Get more or no coins for building the statue.
- Statues could be worth more, perhaps only for the Adulating race.
- Statues could be destroyable. For example, a race may destroy a statue and receive some amount of coins if it has held on to it for some amount of consecutive turns (i.e. it takes a while to destroy).
- The extra tokens of course.
 
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Lars Wagner Hansen
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tehSke wrote:
Adulating (4):
Once per Troop Redeployment, you may place a statue token (of which there are four) in a region you currently occupy that doesn't contain a statue token. If you do, collect one bonus coin. A region with a statue grants an extra bonus coin during each turn's scoring.

This part is the exactly same a the fortresses given with Fortrified, except that there are more fortesses.

Lars
 
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Alexander Fick
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l-hansen wrote:
tehSke wrote:
Adulating (4):
Once per Troop Redeployment, you may place a statue token (of which there are four) in a region you currently occupy that doesn't contain a statue token. If you do, collect one bonus coin. A region with a statue grants an extra bonus coin during each turn's scoring.

This part is the exactly same a the fortresses given with Fortrified, except that there are more fortesses.

Lars


I hadn't realised that I was practically remaking Fortified.. I wanted something that permanently altered the board, but this is a lot less innovative than I thought.

Actually, I just wanted to use the plastic penguins I had from http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/10337/penguin-freeze-...
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Travis Hall
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There are a number of differences between this and Fortified. To whit...

The Statues are permanent, while the Fortresses are removed if the region is abandoned or declined. This simply means that the Statues can give an advantage to your opponents, while the Fortresses can't. (Also to your next Race, if you care to conquer your in-decline Adulating Race.)

The Statues give their bonus while the Adulating Race is in decline. The Fortresses do not.

The Adulating rules do not mention giving a defensive bonus, while the Fortress does. I assume that the Statues are not supposed to give such a bonus, then. This is a bad idea. One of the basic rules of Small World is, two tokens plus one token per piece of cardboard to conquer any region. Don't break basic Small World principles when designing new abilities.

Adulating gives one more token than Fortified.

So all up, Statues probably aren't too unbalanced a power. It is a lot better than many powers that fans have designed. However, it isn't particularly innovative, or a particularly strong design in terms of matching the standard rules.

And frankly, I think there is a good reason why none of the abilities from the base game or either of the two expansions with new Special Powers and Races permanently alter the board. It doesn't take much in the way of alterations before keeping track of all the changes gets really confusing.
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Alexander Fick
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I know they're not exactly the same, but I think perhaps more similar than I like.

Regarding the design rule; I'm specifically not using cardboard tokens as statues, but rather plastic figures (in my case, I have some plastic penguins, so perhaps the name could be Spheniscidaeic or something equally made up), so the rule of cardboard pieces still holds.

I agree that too much permanent alteration is bad, but I don't mind a single race or two having board changing powers. I just don't feel that the original game plus expansions have exhausted the design space enough. This was an attempt, but I'm not impressed with it.
 
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Travis Hall
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tehSke wrote:
Regarding the design rule; I'm specifically not using cardboard tokens as statues, but rather plastic figures (in my case, I have some plastic penguins, so perhaps the name could be Spheniscidaeic or something equally made up), so the rule of cardboard pieces still holds.

Hmm. Good point. I guess you can add something to the board while upholding the principle that way.

tehSke wrote:
I agree that too much permanent alteration is bad, but I don't mind a single race or two having board changing powers. I just don't feel that the original game plus expansions have exhausted the design space enough. This was an attempt, but I'm not impressed with it.

Using only official game components, any attempt at conquest will only ever be affected by two Special Powers and two Races. There is no way to get another special modifier involved, so all the rules that govern a conquest are found in either the base rules or the rules specifically associated with either the attacking combo or the defending combo.

As soon as you add a Special Power that has a permanent effect, you add another set of rules that have to be taken into account, upping the total number involved.

I wouldn't be surprised in many groups could handle that extra complexity. However, it looks to me like the designers said, "This much, and no more."

And that's not a design decision to be ignored lightly. It can be ignored, of course, but we should think very carefully when considering doing so.
 
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Jim bo
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Wraith wrote:
The Adulating rules do not mention giving a defensive bonus, while the Fortress does. I assume that the Statues are not supposed to give such a bonus, then. This is a bad idea. One of the basic rules of Small World is, two tokens plus one token per piece of cardboard to conquer any region. Don't break basic Small World principles when designing new abilities.

It's only a guideline not a hard and fast rule as there are already exceptions. Dragons, Heroes, Holes in the Ground all break this principle and serve other purposes as well so I don't see any problems with statues being represented by cardboard tokens.

Regarding the actual benefit I'm not keen on making the statues permanent because like Travis mentions that is likely to benefit your opponents as much if not more than the player that places them. I'd say allow them to stay whilst in decline but then remove once the region is vacated or conquered.
 
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Bryan Stout
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Yojimbo252 wrote:
Wraith wrote:
The Adulating rules do not mention giving a defensive bonus, while the Fortress does. I assume that the Statues are not supposed to give such a bonus, then. This is a bad idea. One of the basic rules of Small World is, two tokens plus one token per piece of cardboard to conquer any region. Don't break basic Small World principles when designing new abilities.

It's only a guideline not a hard and fast rule as there are already exceptions. Dragons, Heroes, Holes in the Ground all break this principle and serve other purposes as well so I don't see any problems with statues being represented by cardboard tokens.

This is how I feel as well.

In future printings of SW, I would like to see tiny icons on the non-race tokens: Dragons, Heroes, and Holes would have the immunity icon; Lairs, Mountains and Encampments would have a +1 shield; Fortresses would have a +1 shield and +1 coin on one side, and just the shield on the other.

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Travis Hall
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Yojimbo252 wrote:
Wraith wrote:
The Adulating rules do not mention giving a defensive bonus, while the Fortress does. I assume that the Statues are not supposed to give such a bonus, then. This is a bad idea. One of the basic rules of Small World is, two tokens plus one token per piece of cardboard to conquer any region. Don't break basic Small World principles when designing new abilities.

It's only a guideline not a hard and fast rule as there are already exceptions. Dragons, Heroes, Holes in the Ground all break this principle and serve other purposes as well

No, they don't. None of those break the "two tokens plus one per piece of cardboard principle". All of them make a region immune to conquest, so you never get as far as adding up how many tokens would be required to conquer the region.

And yes, there is no hard and fast rule on the matter. However, notice that not a single type of token, of any sort, in the base game or all three of the current official expansions, that is not counted when adding up the number of tokens required to conquer a region. To me, that's a good indication that this isn't a good idea.
 
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Jim bo
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Wraith wrote:
Yojimbo252 wrote:
Wraith wrote:
The Adulating rules do not mention giving a defensive bonus, while the Fortress does. I assume that the Statues are not supposed to give such a bonus, then. This is a bad idea. One of the basic rules of Small World is, two tokens plus one token per piece of cardboard to conquer any region. Don't break basic Small World principles when designing new abilities.

It's only a guideline not a hard and fast rule as there are already exceptions. Dragons, Heroes, Holes in the Ground all break this principle and serve other purposes as well

No, they don't. None of those break the "two tokens plus one per piece of cardboard principle". All of them make a region immune to conquest, so you never get as far as adding up how many tokens would be required to conquer the region.

You can't use timings to bend the definition of a principle. Either a piece of cardboard represents an object that adds one to the defensive value of a region or it doesn't.

Wraith wrote:
And yes, there is no hard and fast rule on the matter. However, notice that not a single type of token, of any sort, in the base game or all three of the current official expansions, that is not counted when adding up the number of tokens required to conquer a region. To me, that's a good indication that this isn't a good idea.

Except Heroes, Holes and the Dragon which are examples of bits of cardboard that serve different purposes. I don't see an issue with tokens being used to represent different things. Let's face it we're all intelligent people here and if the rules state the dragon token means I conquer that region irrespective of the odds and my dragon makes my region immune to attack then everyone knows the score. No one I know has ever complained that the dragon causes confusion because they thought it was just another bit of cardboard that adds 1 to the defence of the region.

In the same vein if the rules state a statue token simply grants additional gold for that region and no combat bonus then I'm sure people will be able to translate the effects of a region with a statue just as easily as a region with a dragon.

Why limit our imagination to try and uphold a principle that already has exceptions?

Barliman wrote:
In future printings of SW, I would like to see tiny icons on the non-race tokens: Dragons, Heroes, and Holes would have the immunity icon; Lairs, Mountains and Encampments would have a +1 shield; Fortresses would have a +1 shield and +1 coin on one side, and just the shield on the other.

You my friend get a thumbs up for that suggestion. Clear, simple and effective.
 
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Travis Hall
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Yojimbo252 wrote:
You can't use timings to bend the definition of a principle. Either a piece of cardboard represents an object that adds one to the defensive value of a region or it doesn't.

There's no bending of the principle. Try it out. Put together any board configuration using any pieces from the base game and any official expansion you like, including those using the Dragon, Holes in the Ground or Heroes. Add up the base required tokens for any conquest. That is, do it exactly as if playing the game. You won't find a single one that breaks the principle.

The only changes come from powers of the attacker, either those that provide a further modifier (so the formula still applies, with an extra -1, -2 or -3 to be applied after applying it), or the Sorcerer's power that specifically bypasses the standard maths.

And suppose we say that the Dragon does add to the defensive value of the region? You'd never notice the effect on the game, because there isn't one. So how do you know it doesn't? Why do you care if it doesn't?

Yojimbo252 wrote:
Wraith wrote:
And yes, there is no hard and fast rule on the matter. However, notice that not a single type of token, of any sort, in the base game or all three of the current official expansions, that is not counted when adding up the number of tokens required to conquer a region. To me, that's a good indication that this isn't a good idea.

Except Heroes, Holes and the Dragon which are examples of bits of cardboard that serve different purposes.

I didn't say there was any problem with bits of cardboard serving a different purpose. In fact, Fortresses are another example of a bit of cardboard serving a different purpose.

Nevertheless, there is an established principle, and one should always consider carefully before breaking an established principle.

There is also an observed principle that nothing changes the board permanently. Notice how every other type of standard Race- or Power-associated token - Dragon, Hole in the Ground, Hero, Lair, Encampment, Fortress, Hordes of, Leaders, everything - is removed when the Race leaves the region, either by abandonment or conquest, or at some point before that. Even the coins placed on the board by Gypsies are removed at the end of the Gypsies turn. This has two important effects: no more than 2 Race abilities and 2 Power abilities will ever be active in a region; and, the abilities that apply during a conquest are always possessed by either the attacker or the defender. That means you will never be left trying to figure out who owns the special marker you find in a region - it is owned by either the attacker or the defender, and if the defender there will be a Race token alongside it so you can figure out who the defender will be.

Breaking such principles is a bad thing to do. That doesn't mean it should never be done, but you need a good reason to do it. This power breaks the second principle, and also breaks the first principle if implemented using cardboard markers (and I'm not sure using plastic penguins really avoids the principle terribly well). And why does it do this? Because somebody saw that board changes don't occur, and rather than considering why this design choice was made, took the lack of permanent board changes as an oversight to be corrected.

No. You should have better reasons to go down this road than that. The new power should offer something pretty special in the way of improvements to the play experience to break those principles.

And as the original poster admitted, this Power is not really terribly ground-breaking. It's not worth it.
 
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Jim bo
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I don't see much point in continuing this discussion as you seem unwilling to accept that the Dragon, Holes in the Ground and Heroes already are exceptions to the "2 + 1 for each bit of cardboard" principle. If they abided by the principle then you would simply add an additional 1 for defence for each of these items but clearly the rules state that this is not the case. That is not their purpose. Therefore they are exceptions.

The fact that they prevent combat and therefore "you never get as far as adding up how many tokens would be required..." is neither here nor there in terms of upholding the principle. If they are bits of cardboard who's purpose is something other than adding 1 to defence of the region then they are exceptions. Principle broken.

Regarding the point of permanency please re re-read my previous post as I already stated to the originator of this thread that I agree with you.

So in summary I don't think statues should be permanent. However the 2 + 1 x bits of cardboard principle is broken as we already have exceptions so I don't see that as an issue.
 
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Travis Hall
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Yojimbo252 wrote:
If they are bits of cardboard who's purpose is something other than adding 1 to defence of the region then they are exceptions. Principle broken.

That would be true if the principle in question was, "Every piece of cardboard adds to the defensive value of a region (without having any other purpose)." However, that is not the principle I am talking about. The principle I am talking about is, "When calculating how many tokens are required to conquer a region, use the formula 2 + 1 per piece of cardboard."

Or perhaps you should tell me what you believe the principle in question is. I've made a statement concerning what I believe it to be, but you haven't.

Or perhaps you could attempt the exercise I set: find a case in which, while adding up the required tokens for conquering a region, the formula "2 + 1 per piece of cardboard in the region" does not apply.

There you go, lots of ways forward in the discussion. It just so happens that "I said X so X must be so" will not make progress.
 
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