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FFG announce the Battle of Westeros game this on Saturday, but it still is not in the BGG database. Already it is being talked about on many Web sites, but not on the greatest Board Game Web site of them all, why is BGG left behind?
 
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Considering that quite a lot of games are in the database well before they are even a twinkle in the publisher's eyes, I don't think this is a major consideration. For this particular game, why don't you add it yourself?

On the other hand it took Chess and Go several thousand years to make it, so there is perhaps room for improvement!
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Battles of Westeros has been in the current submission queue for a while now. No one has just approved it yet.
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Jormi_Boced wrote:
FFG announce the Battle of Westeros game this on Saturday, but it still is not in the BGG database. Already it is being talked about on many Web sites, but not on the greatest Board Game Web site of them all, why is BGG left behind?


It's been talked about a lot here in many threads since it's unveiling. Not being in the DB just means that the moderators are taking their time in making sure the submitter has submitted it with the correct information and a got description of the incoming game, and not just hearsay that was given on various sites.

But as for being talked about:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4674722#4674722
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/4673682#4673682
 
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I got a chance to play it on Saturday and wanted to submit a review. I have also submitted it to be added to the database.
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Jormi_Boced wrote:
FFG announce the Battle of Westeros game this on Saturday, but it still is not in the BGG database. Already it is being talked about on many Web sites, but not on the greatest Board Game Web site of them all, why is BGG left behind?


That's 2 days out of whack for BGG. Hm.
If, after 2 years, noone has entered it yet, I would consider looking at this entry again, until then, submit it yourself, and see how fast it will be there Then add lots of nice pictures and a review or two. Looking forward to them.
 
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salish99 wrote:
Jormi_Boced wrote:
FFG announce the Battle of Westeros game this on Saturday, but it still is not in the BGG database. Already it is being talked about on many Web sites, but not on the greatest Board Game Web site of them all, why is BGG left behind?


That's 2 days out of whack for BGG. Hm.
If, after 2 years, noone has entered it yet, I would consider looking at this entry again, until then, submit it yourself, and see how fast it will be there Then add lots of nice pictures and a review or two. Looking forward to them.


I did submit it.
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yay
 
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salish99 wrote:
yay


It has been submitted since Saturday. I guess I was expecting that by the time I got home it would have already been in the database. I am sure multiple people submitted it from their smart phones at the event. Other sites already have pictures of the box.
 
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Sounds like someone just volunteered for game entry admin duty ninja
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Kestril wrote:
Sounds like someone just volunteered for game entry admin duty ninja


I would be willing to help.
 
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Jormi_Boced wrote:
I got a chance to play it on Saturday and wanted to submit a review. I have also submitted it to be added to the database.


Did you play the game over the weekend? If so, then why is FFG being so cryptic about the details?
 
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Yeah, they drew two names to play Battles of Westeros and two names to play Horus Heresy with the desingers of each game.

I was lucky enough that my freind Bob had his name drawn and he let me play in his stead.

They wouldn't let us take pictures since the components aren't finalized, but they did say we could talk about the game.
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Every submission I have had of Battle of Westeros so far has been a 1) Site scrape of the information on the FFG page, or 2) a very short description that basically says "This is Battlelore set in the Age of Thrones world". Every rejection has asked for a more-complete description of game-play. This is likely going to be a very popular title, and many non-BGG users are going to end up here looking at the information. The entry I will approve will state the theme of the game, the game-play (an actual description of the game-play of a commands and color system. I don't care if it's even cribbed straight from the Commands & Colors wiki page, but a mere reference to another item in the database as if it is a universally known keyword isn't sufficient) and the goal of the game.

As soon as someone submits that, the game will be in the database.
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This "perfect is the enemy of the adequate" approach isn't doing anyone any favors...

We've had this discussion before, and this is a fine case in point.

Scott, *you* get to do more work by repeatedly rejecting entries for a game that should already be in the database by this point.

Multiple other people get to do even more work by repeatedly submitting entries that you are going to arbitrarily reject, basically, just because you can, as they don't meet the wildy varying standards of "The New Quality". (Yes, I know, your rules are so simple and reasonable, but somehow, sub-par entries continue to make it in, while entries that *should* be there get rejected.)

Just approve an entry, any entry, as long as it's marginally adequate. It does not have to be perfect.This is going to be a popular game, and any defects in the entry *will* be ameliorated by the fans.

And, yes, we've heard how most poor entries don't get updated; but y'all have never seen fit to respond to the point that *popular*, *important*, *high profile* games *do* get updated; we've even seen the occasional edit-war...

A simple fix to this phenomena in general, if it is an actual problem, is to simply make wiki-edits to game descriptions submittable for a Geekgold award; perhaps even to set up a bounty system; when you approve a "sub-par" entry, attach a bounty for a "proper" description. "Easy" Geekgold is a proven motivator.

The way the system "works" now just makes for more work and frustration for everyone, and does the database an actual disservice...personally, I'm up to 6 items that should be in the database (as they've been out for months), but aren't, and I have no intention of submitting them until the process works way better and more consistently than it does now.



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skelebone wrote:
Every submission I have had of Battle of Westeros so far has been a 1) Site scrape of the information on the FFG page, or 2) a very short description that basically says "This is Battlelore set in the Age of Thrones world". Every rejection has asked for a more-complete description of game-play. This is likely going to be a very popular title, and many non-BGG users are going to end up here looking at the information. The entry I will approve will state the theme of the game, the game-play (an actual description of the game-play of a commands and color system. I don't care if it's even cribbed straight from the Commands & Colors wiki page, but a mere reference to another item in the database as if it is a universally known keyword isn't sufficient) and the goal of the game.

As soon as someone submits that, the game will be in the database.


I first did number 2, then edited with more info. Then I did number 1.

This game should have been in the database by the end of the weekend at the latest I would say. The info can always be edited as more information is revealed, but right now there isn't a placeholder for it to be edited.
 
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There have been numerous times where I would have liked to subscribe to an upcoming game, but cannot b/c it is being blocked from entering the database by this description "rule". Despite the fact that everyone knows it will be published, people would like to talk about it, and there are sometimes even images that could have been added.

Despite that I'm pretty sure I've seen new game entries with a copy/paste of the publisher's text as a description. I could be mistaken but I think these were for relatively recent games as well, so the new standard would seem arbitrarily applied.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
There have been numerous times where I would have liked to subscribe to an upcoming game, but cannot b/c it is being blocked from entering the database by this description "rule". Despite the fact that everyone knows it will be published, people would like to talk about it, and there are sometimes even images that could have been added.

Despite that I'm pretty sure I've seen new game entries with a copy/paste of the publisher's text as a description. I could be mistaken but I think these were for relatively recent games as well, so the new standard would seem arbitrarily applied.


Right now people are talking about it, but they have to do it in an area where it really doesn't belong, like the Battlelore forums.
 
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fnord23 wrote:
Just approve an entry, any entry, as long as it's marginally adequate. It does not have to be perfect.This is going to be a popular game, and any defects in the entry *will* be ameliorated by the fans.


I don't see how accepting marginal entries helps anyone. For game submitters, it just becomes a race to be first with whatever information can be scraped up -- inadequate or inaccurate. For those who are genuinely interested in the game, there is either a wait for someone to come along with more-complete information (presuming that does happen, since the whole notion of putting out what information is there and waiting for it to be updated later is just a form of foisting the work off on someone else), or just continued conjecture about the game until something finally forms in the forums as a cogent description of the game. And even when something does coalesce in the forums, since the description doesn't get updated (and it won't), the casual user who comes to the game description still has to work to find information about it.

fnord23 wrote:
And, yes, we've heard how most poor entries don't get updated; but y'all have never seen fit to respond to the point that *popular*, *important*, *high profile* games *do* get updated; we've even seen the occasional edit-war...


I still disagree on this. To be sure, some games do get information updates, but those are few and far between and are affected by motivated users. But, the case with most game entries is that the description that was submitted first is the one that sticks. Case in point -- Valdora, I approved this because it was submitted by the designer, and it was a mistake to approve a submission that was short on information about the game-play. The description has been edited 14 times, 10 times by the designer -- and the description still doesn't tell you what you actually do in the game (all of the edits have been stylistic or to add awards). Heck, I've played Valdora, and what is mentioned in the description doesn't even describe to me what I've done in a game I've actually played. More than 500 own it, 180 have commented on it, and no one has updated the description.

fnord23 wrote:
I'm up to 6 items that should be in the database (as they've been out for months), but aren't, and I have no intention of submitting them until the process works way better and more consistently than it does now.


It's certainly your prerogative to not submit information, but I'm not sure why you keep holding this up as if it were a badge of pride.
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JohnnyDollar wrote:
Despite that I'm pretty sure I've seen new game entries with a copy/paste of the publisher's text as a description. I could be mistaken but I think these were for relatively recent games as well, so the new standard would seem arbitrarily applied.


There is nothing wrong with submitting the publisher's information to the description if it actually describes the game. The problem is that most of the time the publisher's information is all promotional or thematic fluff that doesn't describe the game. For example, here is a description that was submitted for Battles of Westeros that came from the publisher with the theme information stricken and the game-play information highlighted (Incidentally, this did end up in the approved form of the game entry).

Unfurl the banners of the Great Houses of Westeros! To secure power in the Seven Kingdoms and to ensure the survival of their lines, the Houses of Westeros each follow very different paths. Some forge strategic alliances, some create complex political intrigues, and still others use deceit and betrayal. But there is no more direct or lasting path to power than taking to the field of battle.

In Battles of Westeros, two players recreate the military conflicts set in George R.R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series, taking part in battles directly from the books... or designing their own. In this epic board game of battlefield tactics, players control either House Stark, the wards of Winterfell who have called their hearty allies to defend their honor and lands, or House Lannister, an aggressive force funded by Casterly Rock’s endless supply of gold.

The description boils down to "two players recreate the military conflicts; players control either [team A] or [team B]. No mention of the underlying system, or that it's a card-driven game, or anything else about the game. For users unfamiliar with Commands and Colors or Battlelore, this could be almost anything. And that's what I'm trying to avoid by asking for a description of theme, game-play, and goal. The description for this one could have been as simple as:
Quote:

"A two player head-to-head conflict, based in the world of George R.R. Martin's A Game of Thrones [Theme]. Players command forces on an open hex field, and use cards to command specific units or units in areas of the board. Combat and game events are resolved with special dice [game-play]. Players play from scenarios created from the books, or can create their own scenarios. The goal of the game is to get X medals (don't know if this is accurate, but it's based on M'44) [goal]


That description is a little short, but it comes closer to speaking to the theme, game-play, and goal than the publisher's information did. And that's why I returned submissions with requests for more information.





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For existing games, what about a project to crib information from Wikipedia entries? That's allowed to be copied I think, and in all the cases I've looked at the game descriptions there are better than the ones here.
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col_w wrote:
For existing games, what about a project to crib information from Wikipedia entries? That's allowed to be copied I think, and in all the cases I've looked at the game descriptions there are better than the ones here.


I think this would be a good idea, except that I believe the information on Wikipedia is a Creative Commons not-for-profit license, and BGG is a for-profit entity. To be sure, there is a lot of info on BGG that infringes on others' work, but the presumption for publisher information is that the blurb on the box is for promotion, and then the use of that information in the game entry is in furtherance of that promotion (this is actually remarkably shaky ground and probably has no basis in fact or law). So, in short, this is probably not a good idea.


Corrected, see proper response below.
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skelebone wrote:
I think this would be a good idea, except that I believe the information on Wikipedia is a Creative Commons not-for-profit license, and BGG is a for-profit entity.

No, the Wikipedia is CC-BY-SA. That means for-profit use is allowed, as long as there is a source attribution (a link to the Wikipedia article generally suffices).

Edit: CC-BY-SA ("attribution, share-alike"), not CC-BY. Still not NC ("non-commercial")
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There is a lot of interesting conversation going on. I am not sure what the best way to get the game description is, and I am not sure it is that important for it to be very good when the game is first submitted. I think the main thing is for BGG to keep up with other Web sites and get a placeholder for exciting new games up right away, so people can put up their pictures, reviews and session reports.
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skelebone wrote:
col_w wrote:
For existing games, what about a project to crib information from Wikipedia entries? That's allowed to be copied I think, and in all the cases I've looked at the game descriptions there are better than the ones here.


I think this would be a good idea, except that I believe the information on Wikipedia is a Creative Commons not-for-profit license, and BGG is a for-profit entity. To be sure, there is a lot of info on BGG that infringes on others' work, but the presumption for publisher information is that the blurb on the box is for promotion, and then the use of that information in the game entry is in furtherance of that promotion (this is actually remarkably shaky ground and probably has no basis in fact or law). So, in short, this is probably not a good idea.


Are you sure? I didn't see anything prohibiting it in the following Wikipedia pages (but I did only skim them):

Terms of use
Creative commons license
Reusing Wikipedia content

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