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Subject: Real WWII war game maps rss

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Michael Tan
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Does anyone know where I can find photos or reproductions of actual WWII strategy and planning rooms - specifically where the generals stared at maps and units. I'm looking for something to model my game maps after. There are some archival maps in the Library of Congress of some map but they are pretty dry and inferior to anything Osprey puts out. I've seen the British situation rooms for the Battle of the Atlantic and Battle of Britain but I'm looking for depictions of the Western, Eastern and Med Fronts. I gotta imagine megalomaniacs like Hitler, Churchill, and Stalin had some poor stiffs making little models with flags for them on a daily basis...

The look that Bowen Simmons achieved with Napoleon's Triumph was spot on for the period but I have seldom if ever seen that style of cartography for 20th century battles...
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Andrea Doria
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I'm not familiar with a source for the maps with the little flags. I do know, however, that someone has published an atlas of Allied battle maps. I can't seem to find that exact book on Amazon at the moment, annoyingly. Of course, my experience has generally been that those maps are among the hardest actually to read, as they contain almost too much detail (and being drawn on with a wax pencil didn't help).

To add to the list of things that probably won't help you, Julia Child's husband worked for the army as an architect during the war, designing war rooms.
 
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Hunga Dunga
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I've seen a number of Japanese WWII maps on eBay.
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Jonathan "Spartan Spawn, Sworn, Raised for Warring!"
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Hungadunga wrote:
I've seen a number of Japanese WWII maps on eBay.


Same here, you might want to try militaria collecting sites. I dont know if your looking for authentic pieces or reproductions. But occasionally German maps show up for sale on collecting sites.

Edit: Here you go:
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/Heer/26Maps.html
http://www.germanmilitaria.com/OtherNations/14Russia2.html (scroll to the bottom)
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Stance Nixon
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West Point has a series of battle maps, but I don't know if you could use them for a game.
 
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Keith Jones
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The American Geographical Society Library, which is based at University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee has a good collection of ww2 maps. The woman to talk to is Jovanka Ristic (ristic@uwm.edu) and it helps if you can supply the coordinates for the locations of interest. If they have the map then they will scan them for $10 and email them to you - I've had a number of scans off them and have always been delighted. Jovanka is incredibly helpful, as well.

You could also take a look at http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=74 which is a useful forum for questions specifically about maps.
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Mark Luta
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Napoleon's Triumph is a much larger scale than what you are looking for. Tactical maps of the WWII and more modern eras actually look somewhat like that--the reason an objective would be called 'Hill 362' or some such was that particular hill was marked on the map as having a height of 362 (either feet or meters, depending on the map). Patton in particular was fond of the commercially availalbe Michelin maps which were among the best before the days of satellite imagery for showing roads.

There are a fair number of the sort of photographs you describe for the strategic maps in war almanacs, they were common propoganda pictures for all sides released to the media. And movies of the period, until at least 'A Bridge Too Far', for whatever they might lack in historical fidelity, did at least benefit from having people around who had actually been in those rooms, so those war movies seem to have the sort of 'jazzed up' maps you are looking to reproduce. The sources for actual maps are surely useful, but they are going to tend to perhaps look a little 'dry' since the main items of importance for the military was rail, road, and river routes, and sometimes elevations. So black and white line drawings seem to be the norm, but I am sure there are probably enough exceptions you might find some more interesting.
 
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Diego Pérez
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http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/eskmap.html or http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/frames/feskmap.html

http://www.audiovis.nac.gov.pl/haslo/201:3/


http://cgsc.cdmhost.com/cdm4/results.php?CISOOP1=all&CISOBOX...
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Gary
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m3tan wrote:
megalomaniacs like ...Churchill...

On what basis was Churchill a megalomaniac?
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Tom Willcockson
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Quote:
On what basis was Churchill a megalomaniac?


Yea that line was a bit much, especially lumping him in with real ones like Hitler and Stalin.
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Michael Tan
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jellynut wrote:
m3tan wrote:
megalomaniacs like ...Churchill...

On what basis was Churchill a megalomaniac?


Warmonger was probably the more appropriate term. He wanted to fight fight fight. He was at the right place and the right time. A decade before or a decade later and he would have just been a long forgotten ultra conservative drunk. But he was the right person for the job at hand so he is considered one of the greatest Brits ever...
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Gary
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TC - sorry I'm not going to be able to ramp up the tension much here.

Michael - I was just interested why you thought that. Would you put any other world leaders in WW2 in that category, or is specifically these three?

 
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Michael Tan
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jellynut wrote:
TC - sorry I'm not going to be able to ramp up the tension much here.

Michael - I was just interested why you thought that. Would you put any other world leaders in WW2 in that category, or is specifically these three?



To clarify, Churchill was a warmonger but not a megalomaniac. Stalin and Hitler were warmongers and megalomaniacs. Mussolini strikes me as a megalomaniac but not a warmonger. Antonescu was kind of a bastard but not sure if he was either. Roosevelt seemed to be the most moderate of the Big 3. Now I'm going to shut up before this thread turns into 150 off topic replies to my poor word choice...
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Michael Tan
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jellynut wrote:
TC - sorry I'm not going to be able to ramp up the tension much here.

Michael - I was just interested why you thought that. Would you put any other world leaders in WW2 in that category, or is specifically these three?



Specifically Churchill was a warmonger because:

1) He wanted to go to war with Hitler since the early 1930s - long before any other any prominant world leader was willing to concede that total war was the only way to stop Hitler.

2) In 1939 he wanted to invade neutral Norway and finallly got his way too late in April 1940.

3) He also wanted to risk making a suicidal assault on the Kreigmarine in the Baltic Sea where the entire Luftwaffe could have sunk the Royal Navy. Cooler heads prevailed and he was talked out of Project Catherine.

4) He wanted to bomb the Urals and Ploesti in neutral Russia and Romania to deny Germany any trade avenue for oil.

5) He ordered a surprise attack on his former allies and sunk most of the neutral Vichy fleet at Oran.

6) He ordered a suicidal raid on the Atlantic Wall in 1942 - Dieppe.

7) He wanted to betray his ally and attack the Soviet Union in 1945 - Operation Unthinkable. Fortunately a soldier, General Eisenhower, was steadfastly opposed to the statesman's (Churchill) plan...
 
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James Carlton
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Churchill's tactical failings are legendary (especially if you're an Australian) and he was clearly quite xenophobic and racist which became more apparant in his later years but I still firmly believe he is the best (and very rare) example of when war is justified.

I'm not especially hawkish but I do believe that the democratic world owes him an enormous debt of gratitude. It is not an exadduration to say that his 'On the Beaches' speech quite literally saved the world as we now know it.
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Michael Tan
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Jasta wrote:
Churchill's tactical failings are legendary (especially if you're an Australian) and he was clearly quite xenophobic and racist which became more apparant in his later years but I still firmly believe he is the best (and very rare) example of when war is justified.

I'm not especially hawkish but I do believe that the democratic world owes him an enormous debt of gratitude. It is not an exadduration to say that his 'On the Beaches' speech quite literally saved the world as we now know it.


I won't disagree that he was absolutely the right man for the job...
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