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Subject: Blue Trade Tokens Score Points? rss

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Eric Rampson
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A few weeks back I played with someone who was adamant that you scored one point per unused blue Trade Token (the action tokens) at the end of the game. I reread the rules cover to cover and didn't find anything about it but I wanted to come here and ask to make sure.

Do you score one point per unused blue Trade Token at the end of the game?
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Chris Johnson
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Nope. You do not.

It is a surprisingly common misunderstanding, due to the poorly worded way the rules instruct you to use the flipped (and now useless) tokens to count up points at the end.

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Tim Seitz
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This is tragically amusing. Such a great game marred by an initially 'clever' (to streamline components) yet ultimately confusing (as described in the rules) scoring system.

You score glory points for:
+ progress on the board (adjusted to the minimum point threshold)
+ glory symbols on cards (or free governor)
+ glory symbols on buildings
+ each city you control (1 or 2 glory symbols)
+ each connection
+ 1 glory per 3 leftover population (a goofy rule)
- subtracting for slavery cards if slavery has been abolished that are discarded

That's it. Tokens are only used to help keep track of board progress. The rules describe this byzantine process which uses the tokens for scoring, but you do not get any points for them.

Edited for corrections to free governor and buildings
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Eric Rampson
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Thanks, all. My understanding (since the very first time I played the game, so I don't find the rules unclear at all) was that tokens ONLY score points indirectly - by raising your various levels. The strength of the other player's conviction made me doubt my reading comprehension. It's good to know I'm not crazy.
 
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Brian Brokaw
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Scud-O wrote:
It's good to know I'm not crazy.

I don't know you well enough to tease, but that is a tempting opening
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Randall Bart
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fnord23 wrote:
It is a surprisingly common misunderstanding, due to the poorly worded way the rules instruct you to use the flipped (and now useless) tokens to count up points at the end.

Ignore the "glory" marker on the back of the tokens. It's just wrong. Most tokens end up scoring points, but it's indirect.
 
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John Anderson
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The rules do state that you clear all the tokens off your player board before counting your score, or something along those lines. If your friend wants proof.
 
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Dave Sinclair
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brokasaphasia wrote:
Scud-O wrote:
It's good to know I'm not crazy.

I don't know you well enough to tease, but that is a tempting opening


Exactly! Can't say you're not crazy, but you are correct about the rule. whistle
 
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Jarratt Gray
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Just to make it official for those who like that sort of thing.

You do not score for blue tokens or any trade tokens at the end of the game. The rules are pretty clear about the things that do score though.
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David and Natalie
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Scud-O wrote:
Thanks, all. My understanding (since the very first time I played the game, so I don't find the rules unclear at all) was that tokens ONLY score points indirectly - by raising your various levels. The strength of the other player's conviction made me doubt my reading comprehension. It's good to know I'm not crazy.


Nope, definitely not crazy. I haven't heard the "unusued blue tokens score points" approach before, but I am constantly surprised by how often the scoring in general is questioned, as the rules seem very clear (to me) as to what is (and is not) permitted.
 
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alan beaumont
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Scoring Blues
seriouslyboard wrote:
... I am constantly surprised by how often the scoring in general is questioned, as the rules seem very clear (to me) as to what is (and is not) permitted.
On the contrary the paragraph is a pain:

Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards. (Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) They will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points. Each token represents 1 Glory point.

Why remove the tokens from the board, in what way does this help? It actually makes owned connections harder to identify.

Why remove the tokens from your player board? It makes it impossible to check your figures retrospectively.

'Each token represents 1 Glory point.' No, they don't. They can be used to count points, but they don't represent them. If you have short term memory problems you may do this, but it actually introduces a potential mythical extra source of VPs. The multiple instances of confusion resulting is evidence enough that this is a badly worded explanation.

(This is pretty much my only gripe with the rules, but it's a biggie!)
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David and Natalie
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misteralan wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
... I am constantly surprised by how often the scoring in general is questioned, as the rules seem very clear (to me) as to what is (and is not) permitted.
On the contrary the paragraph is a pain:

Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards. (Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) They will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points. Each token represents 1 Glory point.

Why remove the tokens from the board, in what way does this help? It actually makes owned connections harder to identify.

Why remove the tokens from your player board? It makes it impossible to check your figures retrospectively.

'Each token represents 1 Glory point.' No, they don't. They can be used to count points, but they don't represent them. If you have short term memory problems you may do this, but it actually introduces a potential mythical extra source of VPs. The multiple instances of confusion resulting is evidence enough that this is a badly worded explanation.

(This is pretty much my only gripe with the rules, but it's a biggie!)


I believe you're stressing a different point to me - that the methodology in which the rules state to count the points is confusing. My point was that the rules are clear in what contributes to one's score, as opposed to what tracks it. And it was an openly subjective point at that: "...the rules seem very clear (to me)..."

Every group inherets its own methodology of scoring, and this typically applies to most games. For us, we score roads in Carcassonne before cities. In Ticket to Ride, we score small missions at the end of the game before we score long missions, often alternating between players as we go. In Endeavor, we score the points as we remove the pieces from the board with regards to connections and cities held. To that end, we don't follow the prescribed methodology of the Endeavor rules, but we don't get confused about what can be scored and what can't.

As for your gripe with the word "represents" - I find that to be an argument of semantics. Perhaps "reflects" may have been more suitable? I consider myself a pedant at the best of times, but found the word "represents" to be a more than adequate choice. In no way do I interpret it as contributing to my score, but again, that's my subjective perspective on things.
 
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alan beaumont
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Friendly fire
seriouslyboard wrote:
I believe you're stressing a different point to me - that the methodology in which the rules state to count the points is confusing. My point was that the rules are clear in what contributes to one's score, as opposed to what tracks it. And it was an openly subjective point at that: "...the rules seem very clear (to me)..."

XXX

As for your gripe with the word "represents" - I find that to be an argument of semantics. Perhaps "reflects" may have been more suitable? I consider myself a pedant at the best of times, but found the word "represents" to be a more than adequate choice. In no way do I interpret it as contributing to my score, but again, that's my subjective perspective on things.
Well yes I am, but you professed yourself surprised that anyone had a problem. I merely point out the probable source. It didn't trouble our group, but I see why it has troubled others.

'Semantics' : Branch of linguistics concerned with meaning.
We are concened with meaning. Your point being? Others have worried that the tokens may score again.

I agree the scoring rules are clear and unambiguous. Bizarrely it is the advice given to ease scoring (for the numerically challenged?) which introduces ambiguity - that and the counter graphic. We agree actually, the rules never troubled me either, but I sympathise with others who may have less experience of the wonderful world of game rules. goo
 
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Craig Liken
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seriouslyboard wrote:
misteralan wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
... I am constantly surprised by how often the scoring in general is questioned, as the rules seem very clear (to me) as to what is (and is not) permitted.
On the contrary the paragraph is a pain:

Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards. (Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) They will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points. Each token represents 1 Glory point.

Why remove the tokens from the board, in what way does this help? It actually makes owned connections harder to identify.

Why remove the tokens from your player board? It makes it impossible to check your figures retrospectively.

'Each token represents 1 Glory point.' No, they don't. They can be used to count points, but they don't represent them. If you have short term memory problems you may do this, but it actually introduces a potential mythical extra source of VPs. The multiple instances of confusion resulting is evidence enough that this is a badly worded explanation.

(This is pretty much my only gripe with the rules, but it's a biggie!)


I believe you're stressing a different point to me - that the methodology in which the rules state to count the points is confusing. My point was that the rules are clear in what contributes to one's score, as opposed to what tracks it. And it was an openly subjective point at that: "...the rules seem very clear (to me)..."

Every group inherets its own methodology of scoring, and this typically applies to most games. For us, we score roads in Carcassonne before cities. In Ticket to Ride, we score small missions at the end of the game before we score long missions, often alternating between players as we go. In Endeavor, we score the points as we remove the pieces from the board with regards to connections and cities held. To that end, we don't follow the prescribed methodology of the Endeavor rules, but we don't get confused about what can be scored and what can't.

As for your gripe with the word "represents" - I find that to be an argument of semantics. Perhaps "reflects" may have been more suitable? I consider myself a pedant at the best of times, but found the word "represents" to be a more than adequate choice. In no way do I interpret it as contributing to my score, but again, that's my subjective perspective on things.


Calm down guys - I do actually think this is a case where the rules actually go further than they needed to - and agree that this seems to have caused more problems than it was probably worth.

In a personal sense it is hard to say if I would have made the same types of mistake or not as I never actually learned the end-scoring from the rules itself - I was taught the game by someone who knew it (actually someone who was taught the game by Jarratt). David, I'm not sure if you are in the same position or not, but being taught the game is usually much easier than trying to learn it from the rules.
 
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Randall Bart
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seriouslyboard wrote:
Every group inherets its own methodology of scoring, and this typically applies to most games.

But the methodology described in the rules leads to confusion.
 
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David and Natalie
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misteralan wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
I believe you're stressing a different point to me - that the methodology in which the rules state to count the points is confusing. My point was that the rules are clear in what contributes to one's score, as opposed to what tracks it. And it was an openly subjective point at that: "...the rules seem very clear (to me)..."

XXX

As for your gripe with the word "represents" - I find that to be an argument of semantics. Perhaps "reflects" may have been more suitable? I consider myself a pedant at the best of times, but found the word "represents" to be a more than adequate choice. In no way do I interpret it as contributing to my score, but again, that's my subjective perspective on things.
Well yes I am, but you professed yourself surprised that anyone had a problem. I merely point out the probable source. It didn't trouble our group, but I see why it has troubled others.

'Semantics' : Branch of linguistics concerned with meaning.
We are concened with meaning. Your point being? Others have worried that the tokens may score again.

I agree the scoring rules are clear and unambiguous. Bizarrely it is the advice given to ease scoring (for the numerically challenged?) which introduces ambiguity - that and the counter graphic. We agree actually, the rules never troubled me either, but I sympathise with others who may have less experience of the wonderful world of game rules. goo


I think we're in the same boat on this one. Neither of us had trouble in our respective groups with the scoring, but we both understand that some others do. My surprise is not that other people have found confusion - I think this happens in most games - but how vastly widespread the confusion seems to be. (Note that I was stating my surprise at how often the confusion arises - not that it arises at all.)

Also, I apologise if I came across as combative, (as Craig has interpreted it). I was actually perfectly relaxed and calm when I wrote the above and quite enjoyed the discussion, (and I presumed the same could be said for you), but perhaps I need to use more pirate emoticons in future! arrrh
 
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David and Natalie
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liken@xtra.co.nz wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
misteralan wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
... I am constantly surprised by how often the scoring in general is questioned, as the rules seem very clear (to me) as to what is (and is not) permitted.
On the contrary the paragraph is a pain:

Remove any remaining Trade Tokens from the game board and the Player Boards. (Be sure that all players’ Status Tracks are correct before their Trade Tokens are removed!) They will be used (glory-side up) along with previously discarded tokens to help count points. Each token represents 1 Glory point.

Why remove the tokens from the board, in what way does this help? It actually makes owned connections harder to identify.

Why remove the tokens from your player board? It makes it impossible to check your figures retrospectively.

'Each token represents 1 Glory point.' No, they don't. They can be used to count points, but they don't represent them. If you have short term memory problems you may do this, but it actually introduces a potential mythical extra source of VPs. The multiple instances of confusion resulting is evidence enough that this is a badly worded explanation.

(This is pretty much my only gripe with the rules, but it's a biggie!)


I believe you're stressing a different point to me - that the methodology in which the rules state to count the points is confusing. My point was that the rules are clear in what contributes to one's score, as opposed to what tracks it. And it was an openly subjective point at that: "...the rules seem very clear (to me)..."

Every group inherets its own methodology of scoring, and this typically applies to most games. For us, we score roads in Carcassonne before cities. In Ticket to Ride, we score small missions at the end of the game before we score long missions, often alternating between players as we go. In Endeavor, we score the points as we remove the pieces from the board with regards to connections and cities held. To that end, we don't follow the prescribed methodology of the Endeavor rules, but we don't get confused about what can be scored and what can't.

As for your gripe with the word "represents" - I find that to be an argument of semantics. Perhaps "reflects" may have been more suitable? I consider myself a pedant at the best of times, but found the word "represents" to be a more than adequate choice. In no way do I interpret it as contributing to my score, but again, that's my subjective perspective on things.


Calm down guys - I do actually think this is a case where the rules actually go further than they needed to - and agree that this seems to have caused more problems than it was probably worth.

In a personal sense it is hard to say if I would have made the same types of mistake or not as I never actually learned the end-scoring from the rules itself - I was taught the game by someone who knew it (actually someone who was taught the game by Jarratt). David, I'm not sure if you are in the same position or not, but being taught the game is usually much easier than trying to learn it from the rules.


Perfectly calm over here, Craig - it's hard not to be when you live near the Mt!

Yes, I was taught for my first game, and yes, that definitely makes things easier, (except for when the teacher has misinterpreted a rule, which usually means I'm the teacher!), but the rules themselves still appear clear to me with regards to what can and what can't be scored.
 
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David and Natalie
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Barticus88 wrote:
seriouslyboard wrote:
Every group inherets its own methodology of scoring, and this typically applies to most games.

But the methodology described in the rules leads to confusion.


I don't disagree, but my point was directed elsewhere.
 
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alan beaumont
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liken@xtra.co.nz wrote:
Calm down guys - I do actually think this is a case where the rules actually go further than they needed to - and agree that this seems to have caused more problems than it was probably worth.
Quite calm actually, glad you agree with me!
Looking at the paragraph for style they are instructions about scoring, rather than the advice they should have been. 'Road to hell ... ' etc.
 
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Philippe N
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out4blood wrote:
This is tragically amusing. Such a great game marred by an initially 'clever' (to streamline components) yet ultimately confusing (as described in the rules) scoring system.

You score glory points for:
+ progress on the board (adjusted to the minimum point threshold)
+ glory symbols on cards
+ each city you control (1 or 2 glory symbols)
+ each connection
+ 1 glory per 3 leftover population (a goofy rule)
- subtracting for slavery cards if slavery has been abolished

That's it. Tokens are only used to help keep track of board progress. The rules describe this byzantine process which uses the tokens for scoring, but you do not get any points for them.


+ free governor slot (+3)
+ Glory symbols on buildings (namely: 3 points per university)
 
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Eric Rampson
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out4blood wrote:
+ 1 glory per 3 leftover population (a goofy rule)


This can be a very important rule, actually. In the same game that the Blue Trade Token error arose, one of the players managed to increase his Culture to 15 while never getting beyond the first level of Industry and the Second level of payments. In the last turn, he had three people on the board and the all but 3 of the rest were in his harbor. He couldn't even draw the 6 he was entitled to because he didn't have that many in the supply. He didn't win (of course) but he scored several points at the end game which kept him from getting blown out.
 
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Joe Mucchiello
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Phoxtrot wrote:
out4blood wrote:
This is tragically amusing. Such a great game marred by an initially 'clever' (to streamline components) yet ultimately confusing (as described in the rules) scoring system.

You score glory points for:
+ progress on the board (adjusted to the minimum point threshold)
+ glory symbols on cards
+ each city you control (1 or 2 glory symbols)
+ each connection
+ 1 glory per 3 leftover population (a goofy rule)
- subtracting for slavery cards if slavery has been abolished

That's it. Tokens are only used to help keep track of board progress. The rules describe this byzantine process which uses the tokens for scoring, but you do not get any points for them.


+ free governor slot (+3)
+ Glory symbols on buildings (namely: 3 points per university)


Quote:
- subtracting for slavery cards if slavery has been abolished

This is not accurate. Abolition is not the trigger for this rule. It should say "subtract 1 for each slavery card discarded." You can discard slavery cards voluntarily. Abolition merely forces you to discard all your slavery cards.
 
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Fixed!
 
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