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Subject: Question on Melee Combat rss

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p55carroll
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Rule 11.2 says (in part):
Quote:
Zero Strength Attacks / Defenses: Combat units with a Combat Strength of zero (0) may not initiate an attack. When attacked, they defend as if their Combat Strength were one (1).


Does this apply to Basic Combat Value as well as Combat Strength per se?

For example, let's say I have a unit with a Combat Strength of 2 attacking a similar unit, also with a Combat Strength of 2, and both units are on stream hexes. Both units suffer a -2 modifier for the stream, and there are no other modifiers involved.

So, I'm guessing the defending unit is reduced to a Basic Combat Value of 0, but it's treated as 1, due to the rule above. However, the attacking unit is also reduced to a Basic Combat Value of 0 and therefore, according to the above rule, cannot attack at all. The melee attack is canceled.

Is that right? Or am I missing something?

As far as I can tell, it must work something like this. Otherwise you'd end up with Basic Combat Values less than 1, and it'd be impossible to calculate combat results.


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Mike Nagel
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Patrick,

No. In the situation you describe, there would be no ratio modifier because the Combat Strengths are the same (assuming neither is modified by a leader or unit advantage). Both sides would garner a -2 drm for the terrain.

I think you've missed the point that the Base Combat Value is equal to a die roll. This Value is modified by various factors.

Somewhere I thought I clarified that a modified Combat Value never drops below a 1 (but I just can't find it anywhere).
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p55carroll
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mpnagel wrote:
Patrick,

No. In the situation you describe, there would be no ratio modifier because the Combat Strengths are the same (assuming neither is modified by a leader or unit advantage). Both sides would garner a -2 drm for the terrain.

I think you've missed the point that the Base Combat Value is equal to a die roll. This Value is modified by various factors.

Somewhere I thought I clarified that a modified Combat Value never drops below a 1 (but I just can't find it anywhere).

I remember reading that the modifier for having an odds advantage cannot exceed 10. But I don't see anything about a modified Combat Value never dropping below 1.

Is that the simple answer, then? Just stop at 1?

So in my example above (a strength 2 unit making a frontal attack against another strength 2 unit, both units on stream hexes, with no other modifiers), I guess you'd roll dice and modify them as usual (in this case, just the -2 terrain modifier for both units), but if either side's modified roll came up less than 1, you'd treat it as 1.

Is that right? Since there are no other modifiers in my example--just terrain--I guess that means, in effect, that a die roll of 3 is the same as a die roll of 1 or 2. All are converted to 1, due to the terrain modifier plus your "clarification" that Combat Value cannot drop below 1.

Hope I've got it.


PS When I get this straight, I've gotta make myself a CRT for this game. This business about combat odds being a DRM is just too weird a trick for an old dog like me to learn. When I set up an attack, I need to know what the possible outcomes are going to be--and I can't just quickly "see" that in my mind, what with all the calculations and modifiers.
 
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Craig Artl
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Mike...here is what you are looking for:

The Base Combat Values for both sides are simply equal to their respective die rolls. The modifiers are then calculated for Combat Strength Advantage, Terrain and Tactical Approach Vector. If you check section "V" under the procedure found on page 8, you will find that it says...Apply the Base Combat Value Modifiers found in this step to the Base Combat Value rolled for each unit in sub-step "I" (to a minimum of '1'). This provides the Final Melee Value for each unit. We just referenced that rule tonight during our game!
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p55carroll
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Biker1999 wrote:
If you check section "V" under the procedure found on page 8, you will find that it says...Apply the Base Combat Value Modifiers found in this step to the Base Combat Value rolled for each unit in sub-step "I" (to a minimum of '1'). This provides the Final Melee Value for each unit. We just referenced that rule tonight during our game!

So, what version of the rules did you find that in? It's not in the printed rules I have at home. And I just checked the online rules at the VPG site and found this:
Quote:
v) Final Melee Value: Apply the Base Combat Value Modifiers found in this step to the Base Combat Value rolled for each unit in Sub-step i. This provides the Final Melee Value for each unit.

Nothing about "(to a minimum of '1')."

I'm glad I now know how it works. But it makes me wonder what other rules have been clarified or changed since I bought the game.
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Craig Artl
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Patrick,

I just received my game from VPG a week or so ago and they included Version 1.23 of the rules. I noticed that the rules posted on their website are still Version 1.22 so the inclusion of the "to a minimum of 1" detail must be brand new. Maybe VPG can just update their online rules so you can grab the latest version.
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Alex Rom
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Biker1999 wrote:
Mike...here is what you are looking for:

The Base Combat Values for both sides are simply equal to their respective die rolls. The modifiers are then calculated for Combat Strength Advantage, Terrain and Tactical Approach Vector. If you check section "V" under the procedure found on page 8, you will find that it says...Apply the Base Combat Value Modifiers found in this step to the Base Combat Value rolled for each unit in sub-step "I" (to a minimum of '1'). This provides the Final Melee Value for each unit. We just referenced that rule tonight during our game!

Thank you very much!
It is so hard to find these small changes when you learned rules using previous editions of the rulebook.
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