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Subject: Another Curse card question rss

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Scott Ames
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Why isn't the card like this?

Name: Curse
Type: Victory

It would definitely add to the game if cards that affected Victory cards also affected Curse cards and it seems that any card with the VP shield of it should be a Victory card.

 
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Jeff Wolfe
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txras wrote:
Why isn't the card like this?

Name: Curse
Type: Victory

It would definitely add to the game if cards that affected Victory cards also affected Curse cards and it seems that any card with the VP shield of it should be a Victory card.



It would certainly change the game, but that doesn't necessarily mean the change would be for the better. Making it not be a Victory card makes it easier to balance the effect the Curse has on the player who has it.
 
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I think it was a mistake naming the Curse and the type Curse. I think new cards with a mixed type that includes negative VPs shouldn't use the word curse in the type.
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Greg Filpus
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monteslu wrote:
I think it was a mistake naming the Curse and the type Curse. I think new cards with a mixed type that includes negative VPs shouldn't use the word curse in the type.


Based on the conventions of other cards (contrast Mine and Bureaucrat, for instance), "gain a Curse card" means gain a card with the type Curse, whereas "gain a Curse" means gain the -1 VP Curse that exists in the base set. All existing attacks use the latter wording, so there's no inconsistency. Sure it'll be confusing, but the FAQ for the new curse type just has to say that.
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David desJardins
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What new type? I think it very unlikely there will ever be any new, different cards with the type "Curse".
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Branko K.
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txras wrote:
Why isn't the card like this?

Name: Curse
Type: Victory

It would definitely add to the game if cards that affected Victory cards also affected Curse cards and it seems that any card with the VP shield of it should be a Victory card.



On one hand, I do not agree. I like that Curse is distinctively different from "Victory" cards, even though its net effect is tweaking the overall VP number in the end.

However, seeing that the Potion card from Dominion:Alchemy are typed as Treasure to allow for some interesting implications and card interactions, I can see that Donald isn't against consolidating card types even where it is not thematically consistent.

Oh, and btw:

GregF wrote:

Based on the conventions of other cards (contrast Mine and Bureaucrat, for instance), "gain a Curse card" means gain a card with the type Curse, whereas "gain a Curse" means gain the -1 VP Curse that exists in the base set. All existing attacks use the latter wording, so there's no inconsistency. Sure it'll be confusing, but the FAQ for the new curse type just has to say that.


Check again. All the existing cursing Attack cards state "Gain a Curse CARD". And while we're at it, I would say that I see no problems with the phrasing and the possibility of another Curse card; just as Potions are (optionally) a new type of Treasure that can be available in every game, so can another Curse type optionally replace or exist in addition with the existing one. It is only a matter of ruling whether the cursing or the cursed player should be the ones who chose which kind of Curse card the cursed player gains.
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Scott Ames
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monteslu wrote:
I think it was a mistake naming the Curse and the type Curse. I think new cards with a mixed type that includes negative VPs shouldn't use the word curse in the type.


I definately agree.
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dale yu
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txras wrote:
Why isn't the card like this?

Name: Curse
Type: Victory

It would definitely add to the game if cards that affected Victory cards also affected Curse cards and it seems that any card with the VP shield of it should be a Victory card.



We decided to make the Curse card have the type "Curse" because that's what worked best for the game as it was developed.

While there are certainly some interesting interactions that could occur if Curse were a "Victory" card, there are also plenty of interactions that would happen that we wouldn't want either. And, in our playtesting (in conjunction with Donald), it turned out best to make Curse be its own type. And that's why it is what it is.

Thanks for your interest in the game
Dale
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Donald X.
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txras wrote:
Why isn't the card like this?

Name: Curse
Type: Victory

It would definitely add to the game if cards that affected Victory cards also affected Curse cards and it seems that any card with the VP shield of it should be a Victory card.

First, from the Secret History:

Quote:
Curse: Originally this was a "Token" (you know, on the bottom line). There were both Curse and Confusion cards, and I wanted a name that didn't suggest a penalty, since who knows, maybe I would eventually make a non-penalty card like that. And I felt like maybe I would want to refer to these cards, so they needed a category. But with just Curse, and no need to refer to the cards, the name "Token" just looked weird. "Curse" was the easy out. It isn't a Victory card because that would cause some poor card interactions eventually.

I do think it would have been better not to "overload" the word Curse. It should have a different type than name. This may never matter for real cards, but could for people making homemade cards. I knew at the time that a different word would be better, but I couldn't think of something good to go there. Curse was easy. And like I said it doesn't really matter. There was only so much time to spread around.

Anyway like it says in the quote, I looked at what cards interacted with victory cards at the time, and preferred Curse not interacting with them. It was a conscious decision based on the specific cards that existed in the game then. There is another reason for it too though, which is color. Card colors are always tied to types (but not vice-versa, since types don't always have rules that go with them, and there are only so many colors, not counting weird colors). The color tells you a type. Blue cards are reactions, etc. This is where someone asks why Moat isn't half blue half white and I reply that I totally considered that but it seemed more confusing than helpful at that point. Anyway I think it's good to have Curse be a different color, and that was another reason to give it a type separate from Victory.
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Scott Ames
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Thank you Donald and Dale for your answers. I appreciate them.

Donald, I still have a question though:

donaldx wrote:
Anyway like it says in the quote, I looked at what cards interacted with victory cards at the time, and preferred Curse not interacting with them. It was a conscious decision based on the specific cards that existed in the game then. There is another reason for it too though, which is color. Card colors are always tied to types (but not vice-versa, since types don't always have rules that go with them, and there are only so many colors, not counting weird colors). The color tells you a type. Blue cards are reactions, etc. This is where someone asks why Moat isn't half blue half white and I reply that I totally considered that but it seemed more confusing than helpful at that point. Anyway I think it's good to have Curse be a different color, and that was another reason to give it a type separate from Victory.


Personally, I don't think curse card color matter at all. I think it would be just as understandable being green.

I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury. I don't see how having them interact with curses would be bad. Ironworks and Treasury would probably never get used that way anyway. You know the game better than anyone though, so you know best.
 
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David desJardins
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txras wrote:
I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury.


You overlooked Bureaucrat.
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Donald X.
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txras wrote:
I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury.

There are also the cards that I already had then but which haven't come out yet, and the cards that at the time were in sets but may not make it out at all in the end.

I had 5 expansions when I showed the game to RGG, and 6 when the game came out (and 8 at one point during development, but those were smaller).
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Scott Ames
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DaviddesJ wrote:
txras wrote:
I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury.


You overlooked Bureaucrat.


You're right. I sure did. My mistake.
 
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Scott Ames
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donaldx wrote:
txras wrote:
I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury.

There are also the cards that I already had then but which haven't come out yet, and the cards that at the time were in sets but may not make it out at all in the end.

I had 5 expansions when I showed the game to RGG, and 6 when the game came out (and 8 at one point during development, but those were smaller).


Makes sense. Being the developer, you've git cards no one else has, and probably some no one will ever have. Either due to wanting to keep them private, wanting them in future sets, or you decided you just didn't like them.

Dominion has become my favorite card game.
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John Anderson
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txras wrote:
I just reviewed the all the cards that could interact with curse cards, I see four: Scout, Ironworks, Tribute, and Treasury. I don't see how having them interact with curses would be bad.
It depends how you define "bad" in this context. Would it be "good" if those cards interacted with Curses? It would make Scout and Tribute marginally stronger cards, and as you said probably wouldn't affect Ironworks, Treasury, or Bureaucrat at all. Is that good or bad? I don't know. It would just be different.
 
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David desJardins
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puck71 wrote:
It would make Scout and Tribute marginally stronger cards, and as you said probably wouldn't affect Ironworks, Treasury, or Bureaucrat at all.


Hmm? It affects Bureaucrat just as much as Scout or Tribute.
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John Anderson
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DaviddesJ wrote:
puck71 wrote:
It would make Scout and Tribute marginally stronger cards, and as you said probably wouldn't affect Ironworks, Treasury, or Bureaucrat at all.


Hmm? It affects Bureaucrat just as much as Scout or Tribute.
You're right. For some reason I was only thinking of the scenario where you have a curse AND a victory card in your hand, in which case Bureaucrat doesn't really change. But I overlooked the scenario where you have a Curse, but no victory cards, which does in fact make the Bureaucrat stronger, since it would force people to put the Curse back on their deck.
 
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David desJardins
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I guess it could very occasionally be a benefit, e.g., if an opponent plays Bureaucrat and you're holding Baron-Estate-Curse-Gold-Copper.
 
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John Hodge
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I think it would be interesting to see a combination Curse/Action or (even more) Curse/Reaction. Something that might be a good buy early, if you think you can trash it later. Maybe 0 or 2 cost, -3 VP, but effects of a 4-5 cost Kingdom card,
 
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Jon
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VTHodge wrote:
I think it would be interesting to see a combination Curse/Action or (even more) Curse/Reaction. Something that might be a good buy early, if you think you can trash it later. Maybe 0 or 2 cost, -3 VP, but effects of a 4-5 cost Kingdom card,


I don't think a card needs to have the type Curse to be worth negative VPs. Just because the only -VP card has the type Curse, doesn't mean that must continue. If you don't put the word 'Curse' anywhere on the card, you get to explore more design space without muddying cards like Witch with errata.
 
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I guess it could very occasionally be a benefit, e.g., if an opponent plays Bureaucrat and you're holding Baron-Estate-Curse-Gold-Copper.

It would be a great benefit if you had a Lookout in your hand.
 
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John Hodge
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JonPrud wrote:
I don't think a card needs to have the type Curse to be worth negative VPs. Just because the only -VP card has the type Curse, doesn't mean that must continue. If you don't put the word 'Curse' anywhere on the card, you get to explore more design space without muddying cards like Witch with errata.

Good point. Guess I just want more of those nice purple cards.
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Matt N

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grant5 wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I guess it could very occasionally be a benefit, e.g., if an opponent plays Bureaucrat and you're holding Baron-Estate-Curse-Gold-Copper.

It would be a great benefit if you had a Lookout in your hand.


Or if you counted cards and know that you'll get a trashing card next. If the choice is province-curse, it's even more obvious.

Still, I agree that curse being a victory card would be a negative overall.
 
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Jon
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VTHodge wrote:
Guess I just want more of those nice purple cards.


That I cannot disagree with.
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donaldx wrote:

I do think it would have been better not to "overload" the word Curse. It should have a different type than name. This may never matter for real cards, but could for people making homemade cards. I knew at the time that a different word would be better, but I couldn't think of something good to go there. Curse was easy. And like I said it doesn't really matter. There was only so much time to spread around.


Well, if you keep the color, any word can work right? As long as it's something different then Curse so that you can't do something like take it as an option when being attacked with a Torturer.

A couple of ideas for wording:



(not sure if this particular one is balanced yet, the numbers are the result of a poll)



 
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