Recommend
26 
 Thumb up
 Hide
55 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Multi-Man Publishing» Forums » General

Subject: New England Tribal Leaders Bash Multi-Man Publishing's Forthcoming 'King Philip's War' rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Terry Egan
United States
Waltham
MA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This story appeared today in the Providence Journal:

http://www.projo.com/news/content/INDIAN_WAR_GAME_03-15-10_4...

Sad. Those criticizing the game are worried that a significant event in their history is being belittled, but their attitude does the same to our hobby. They automatically assume that being the subject of any game demeans and trivializes any topic without stopping to consider that games can be a great teaching/learning tool. Whether it's about different locales, economics or conflict, games can help us understand the history, strategy and psychology involved. In fact, I think game simulations are one of the BEST ways to understand certain events.

End of rant. Just my two cents!
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
Scheiß Inselaffen!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
“I don’t know whether to laugh, cry or be angry,” adds John Brown, historic preservation officer for the Narragansett Indian tribe. “The message seems to be, it’s still OK to kill Indians.”


Or, viewed from another perspective, that it's still OK to kill Colonists.... Actually, I think Poniske defends himself very well and I think with a little more knowledge and a little less knee-jerk reaction, Brown's "shocked from Tumbridge Wells" brigade would probably agree with him.

Anyway, it's a bunch of people getting worked up over something they don't understand and a journlist telling us about it in order to sell papers (perhaps the journalist even came across the game and told John Brown and co. about it in order to create a story...)--not much new there.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Dennis Shaper
United States
Alabama
flag msg tools
Still O.K. to kill Indians? That's what he gets from historical games?
Did they also come out against other games of this nature? Washington's War is also justifying still killing Brits...not that I ever stopped, but still.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Maybe the critics should just put their heads back in the sand so we can all be happy.

Maybe we should all go back to Europe or Africa where our ancestors came from.

I think slavery is a terrible bit of heritage that I do not want to be reminded of - from this day forward all people of color should stay out of my sight.

Those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them.

Semper educateus.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Deadworld
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some people are offended by the game. Why not tell them to just deal with it? Why do people these days feel a need to rationalize and apologize to anyone who says that something offenders them, unless, of course, it's overweight people being offended.

If I do a game and it offends someone, I usually just ignore them.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems like valid opinions on all sides. I don't hear the Native Americans saying the game should be banned. They are just expressing their reaction to it, which seems as valid as any other. Is it really surprising that some people don't like the idea of a game about massacring their ancestors?
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, the game is not about the massacre of their ancestors any more than a World War II game is about the Holocaust.

As the designer points out, the New England Indians led by Metacomet were a credible military force and if the native population ever had a chance to drive the colonists out via force this was their chance. It was a war.

Wargames, by their very nature, do tend to gloss over the more unpleasant aspects of war such as atrocities -- but then they don't generally tend to dwell on shattered bodies, grime, disease, refugees, etc., etc. The fact that wargames don't highlight those aspects bothers some people, as periodic discussions here on BGG illustrate. A small number of people find wargames objectionable by nature.

On the other hand, most people, even non wargamers, can see the interest wargames might have for people and even their value from an educational standpoint. Are Axis & Allies: 1942 or Memoir '44 objectionable? Really, Native American leaders ought to see this game as an opportunity to bring attention to a little-known episode of American history that had a tremendous impact on later events.

I don't see anything about this game design in the pre-publication information that has come out so far that makes it the slightest bit objectionable -- unless you object to any depiction of war at all. It appears to treat both sides even-handedly.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Phillips
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
"It clearly demonstrates how--sadly--racism and misconceptions continue to exist in America, even in the 21st century," says Rae Gould, tribal historic preservation officer for the Nipmuc Nation.


Um.... So remembering the past = repeating the past? I thought it was supposed to be the other way around. I guess the movie 300 revealed that anti-Achaemenid-Persian racism is alive and well, even in our enlightened day and age. And don't get me started on Chess. It's just Mississippi Burning on a checkered board.

Quote:
"The message seems to be, it’s still OK to kill Indians."


Just like the message of Monopoly seems to be that it's okay, even admirable, to drive your friends and family into bankruptcy with shrewd business practices, and the message of Risk is clearly that the most powerful nation has the right to conquer the world....

Quote:
"That a game would be based on this really bothers me," says Peters. "Would we play a game called The Holocaust?"


First, the game is based on the war, not the atrocities. Second, there are hundreds of games (and movies and books and plays and TV shows) based on World War 2.

The tribes clearly need to redirect their anger. The journalist is the one making them look bad by quoting and publishing the blockheaded things said by some of their less reflective members. He's propagating the stereotype of the ignorant savage, isn't he?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
wargamer55 wrote:
Really, Native American leaders ought to see this game as an opportunity to bring attention to a little-known episode of American history that had a tremendous impact on later events.


No, people ought to feel how they feel. Their feelings can't be wrong, that's what makes them their feelings.

You ought to like it when I do you the favor of pointing out your lack of empathy and respect for other people's views. But I predict you won't.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Tak
United States
Chapin
South Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A'ight I'm not always in the same camp as the groggiest of grogs, but on this one... Where's my stabbin' stick, someone's overdue for a poke!

*tut-tuts his way to bed*
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
eryn roston
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
This sounds to me like some sort of semantic misunderstanding to me.

Here's this tragic event in the history of a people who are used to getting the short of the stick.

Someone says, "These people over there made a GAME out of said tragic event".

Games sound like some sort of fun frivolous thing to do. Turning something "serious" into something "silly" smacks of disrespect.

It's a good bet that neither the journalist nor the offended party knows much about wargames or "consims". I'm sure it sounds pretty bad to them.
Bridging the gap between "I turned your heartache into a dumb game" and "this is a way in which some people pursue their interest in history" is probably pretty difficult.

-E
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ralph T
United States
Signal Hill
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suspect that they don't object to the game for being in development so much as they object to not being consulted on the project--as they are accustomed to whenever any documentary/movie involving their historical leaders/tribes gets developed. This is a lesson for designers to attempt to consult with tribes if they make plan to make a game about one of their events in history. They might have ended up fully supportive and even offer some historical perspective he might not get from the books.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Webb Space Telescope in 2018!
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
I don't see why MMP should feel obligated to consult the tribes, although certainly it would be a nice gesture. The tribes are sensitive about the topic, which is understandable. But the war MMP is simulating is a historical fact and as such is in the "public domain" so to speak. A wargame about the event is not much different than a reputable historian writing a book on the topic.

From the article, it appears wartime atrocities were committed on both sides. War is hell, as the cliche goes. History is full of regrettable and unfortunate events. The best way to deal with that is to learn about the events, so as not to repeat them, as the saying goes and has been said here already.

A great way to learn about this war is through a wargame. It sounds like this game is bringing to light a little-known, but very significant, chapter in history. It's being done in a respectful way (it's MMP). The opposite of trivializing or demeaning the event, as the tribes accuse, it seems to me.

The way for societies to move forward is to confront their past and see things more objectively. Forgiveness on both sides and a resolve to do better in the future. Otherwise you get Bosnia.

In my opinion the tribes need to get over the fact that it happened and move on - maybe playing this wargame would even help them confront their own history and come to some closure. And maybe us "majority-Americans" can reflect on the evils that can happen when people can't get along and can't respect each other.


Here's the game on BGG:
King Philip's War

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Phillips
United States
Greensboro
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ralpher wrote:
I suspect that they don't object to the game for being in development so much as they object to not being consulted on the project--as they are accustomed to whenever any documentary/movie involving their historical leaders/tribes gets developed. This is a lesson for designers to attempt to consult with tribes if they make plan to make a game about one of their events in history.


Right, like they consult with the government of France every time they make a game about Napoleon, or the government of Germany and several North African states every time they're working on a game about Rommel's campaigns in North Africa.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cory C
Canada
Ottawa
ON
flag msg tools
badge
100% FUN
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Silly, games like this help people learn history and remember what happened.

It's obviously a wargame and not a 'party game' so the subject matter is handled respectfully and most likely in an objective manner.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Webb Space Telescope in 2018!
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
Avatar
mb
CoryC wrote:

It's obviously a wargame and not a 'party game' so the subject matter is handled respectfully and most likely in an objective manner.

I have to wonder if the tribes are hung up on the word "game." Most people don't know what a MMP-type wargame is.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
E D
United States
wilton
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
maybe this will help mmp reach the preorder limit, any publicity is good publicity?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Adam D.
United States
Suquamish
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Grievance theatre. This happened how many centuries ago?

Gotta keep the hate going, it pays the bills... and yah I just said that.

On the other hand, I'm still pissed at those brits for burning DC 200 years ago.
3 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
wargamer55 wrote:
Really, Native American leaders ought to see this game as an opportunity to bring attention to a little-known episode of American history that had a tremendous impact on later events.


No, people ought to feel how they feel. Their feelings can't be wrong, that's what makes them their feelings.

You ought to like it when I do you the favor of pointing out your lack of empathy and respect for other people's views. But I predict you won't.


Actually, I demonstrated respect for your opinion by not pointing out the first time that it was stupid. All opinions are not equally valid, particularly opinions based on ignorance. Likewise, feelings can definitely be wrong. Racism, for example, is emotionally based rather than fact-based. It's a wrong feeling.

This notion that feelings, opinions, ignorance and myth are just as valid as facts, expertise, study and logic is one of the most pernicious ones percolating through the culture and public discourse. They are not.
If people choose to be offended out of ignorance rather than take opportunities to educate when they occur then that is a problem. It's like the periodic controversies over the word "niggardly" that erupt. Being offended by that word because you are too ignorant to know what it means should be considered a problem for the uneducated person, not the educated one who uses it appropriately.

Similarly, being offended because someone designs a history-based wargame on an episode of your history instead of using that opportunity to educate people about the episode is, at best, short-sighted and at worst merely causes people to dismiss your legitimate grievances as mere whining. What ethnic group has no tragedy and injustice in its history?

11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Eagles
United States
Springdale
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I would like to stay optimistic about the whole thing. As I am not nor do I have any Native American blood I cannot speak to how they feel about the matter. BUT I would say that this could become an opportunity lost for them to get their views across to the wargamers that purchase the game.

I own Conquest of Paradise, and love to play it with my 10 year old daughter. She LOVES the game primarily due to the historical insert that came with the game. For those of you that don't own the game, CoP comes with a 20 page booklet of 'Designers Notes' that goes into the historical background of the Native People you will be playing. My daughter and I took turns reading out loud together and she was/is hooked.

If I were one of the historic preservationists, or one of the Native people, I would speak with MMP directly to voice my concerns. In my very humble opinion I think the Mashpee Wampanoag tribe should come together and come up with a booklet of their own. Give it to MMP and ask them to throw it in the box.

I mean if their concern is this game is spreading a negative or one sided view of this historic time period in their history...take the time to educate us! I really think that if the 'naysayers' were to open up a dialogue with the wargamers they are railing against, they just may be pleasantly surprised that we are NOT in fact the ignorant hatemongers they seem to think we are...
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Gates
United States
Essex
Maryland
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TheCollector wrote:
On the other hand, I'm still pissed at those brits for burning DC 200 years ago.


I thought that was the Canadians.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
I don't mind the negative stance some people take towards the game, and won't fault their feelings that it can be a painful reminder of a historical event some would (apparently?) prefer to forget.

However, I am concerned that some of the comments made by detractors will reflect badly on them once emotions have cooled. Sometimes people say foolish things when emotion and/or ignorance overcome logical discussion. The closing comment in particular seems out of place and poorly chosen except for shock value.


Eagles wrote:
I mean if their concern is this game is spreading a negative or one sided view of this historic time period in their history...take the time to educate us!


I would highly value such an addition. Increased production cost could be an issue, but it would be interesting and exciting to have even a single page (or at the very least, hosting a webpage) of history and commentary from the perspective of a Native historian.


milgate wrote:
TheCollector wrote:
On the other hand, I'm still pissed at those brits for burning DC 200 years ago.


I thought that was the Canadians. :)


When it actually happened, there were no Canadians... although we sometimes try to take credit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It's interesting that the Providence Journal writer chose to include comments from representatives of the Nipmuc, Narragamsett and Mashpee Wampanoag tribes but omitted comments from the Mohegan and Mashantucket Pequots, who runs casinos (and museums) nearby in Connecticut.

One wonders if this was because they might have proven rather inconvenient for his narrative, as those two tribes were allied with the English colonists during the war.

Their perspective might have been interesting as well.
12 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Чебурашка, ты настоящий друг!
United Kingdom
Durham
flag msg tools
Scheiß Inselaffen!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
It seems like valid opinions on all sides. I don't hear the Native Americans saying the game should be banned. They are just expressing their reaction to it, which seems as valid as any other. Is it really surprising that some people don't like the idea of a game about massacring their ancestors?


Your talk of valid opinions is either patently true--if you mean that people have the right to express their opinion and that we ought to listen to them, at least once, or patently false--if you mean that all the opinions expressed are of equal value.

Of course, you are right in that the Native Americans are giving their reaction to the game, and given that wargaming is a niche within a nice it is hardly surprising that those who are angry lack the context with which they can judge it; I can understand as a result why they might worry that making a game about their history could be a form of trivialising it, although it doesn't actually sound like the game is about massacring any one. The problem is, though, simply accepting their "right" to be outraged is just allowing another misunderstanding to make one group of people feel further aggrieved, when it is not really necessary, and another group of people to get annoyed at the first's apparent "desire to bear a grudge". It's far better, surely, to explain politely that the game is not a lurid piece of Injun' bashing; indeed, I think it's interesting the role that the journalist has played in all this--it seems to me like a deliberate attempt to stir up a bit of ethnic tension just to sell copy.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Salo sila wrote:
Of course, you are right in that the Native Americans are giving their reaction to the game, and given that wargaming is a niche within a nice it is hardly surprising that those who are angry lack the context with which they can judge it; I can understand as a result why they might worry that making a game about their history could be a form of trivialising it, although it doesn't actually sound like the game is about massacring any one. The problem is, though, simply accepting their "right" to be outraged is just allowing another misunderstanding to make one group of people feel further aggrieved, when it is not really necessary, and another group of people to get annoyed at the first's apparent "desire to bear a grudge". It's far better, surely, to explain politely that the game is not a lurid piece of Injun' bashing; indeed, I think it's interesting the role that the journalist has played in all this--it seems to me like a deliberate attempt to stir up a bit of ethnic tension just to sell copy.


You seem convinced that the Native Americans must be ignorant or misinformed to hold the opinions they do. I think you are just wrong. This is only slightly less arrogant than others who have posted here. You are convinced that if everyone had your knowledge and wisdom then they would see things as you do. But it's just not so. I don't see any indication in the article that the people expressing their negative opinions about the game are misinformed or ignorant about what it is. They seem to understand it perfectly well.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.