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Subject: Raids rss

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Mario Abad
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Hi every one!
First of all, I'd like to say that I'm quite new at wargames, so maybe that is why I'm the only silly one who does not understand the Raid rules quite well.
My gaming group has assigned me the task of reading the rules thoroughly in order to play our first session this weekend, and I'm getting kind of desperate, for there are so many rules and exceptions to this game that I'm going crazy! So please, any kind soul who could help me...

RAIDING- According to my Spanish rulebook, during a raiding turn, all the nation's armies which are in a sea area at the beginning of the nation's turn are considered to be raiding armies for that turn. OK, so far I understand. But there is a sentence in brackets which confuses me. It says that all armies (NOT ONLY THOSE WHICH HAVE BEEN PLACED IN A SEA AREA AT THE BEGINNING OF A NATION'S TURN) in a sea area are considered raiding armies. My question is: How can an army end a turn in a sea area so that it can remain there until the beginning of the next raiding turn? Is there any other way of doing it other than placing the armies you are told in the turn's chart? Or does it simply refer to those turns which are preceded by another raiding turn?

Hope I made myself clear enough. I'm looking forward to playing the game as fluently as possible!
Thanks in advance!
 
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Paul Schulzetenberg
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Some nations have multiple raiding turns in a row. This means that they can be at sea after one raiding turn. Then, the next turn, these armies would still be counted as raiding armies as they started the turn at sea, even though they were not placed at sea to begin the turn. Hope that helps.
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Neil Whyman
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As a general rule, all the nation's armies at sea will have the same status, that is either Raider, Invader, or Major Invader.

If the nation is not shown as having either Raiders or a Major Invasion then all armies at sea are just regular Invaders.

Raiders can land and then return to sea. However for Invaders they can either stay at sea, or land and stay ashore. If they remain at sea then they too could potentially be reclassified as raiders the next turn - it just depends on the status alotted that nation.

If a Major Invasion has been designated then ALL units of the nation get the double turn, not just the ones at sea. I think only the Danes will give any problems with this interpretation.

Good luck!
 
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Lewis Pulsipher
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Don't think of particular armies as "raiders" or "invaders", think of the turn as a time when the nation is raiding or invading. In a raiding turn the armies starting at sea can go back to sea after landing somewhere. There are two occasions when this is possible because it is a raiding turn even though it is also a major invasion turn. If it is a major invasion other than those two, the armies must end up on land, not back at sea.

Unfortunately, when rules are translated, unless the translator is someone who plays the game *a lot,* all kinds of uncertainties are likely to be introduced. The only translator who asked me for clarificiation was the German. And he had been given the 2006 rules (which had defects introduced by the FFG rewrite) rather than the 2008 rules to translate.

Lew Pulsipher
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Ken
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I'm not sure Lew's answer cleared things up (because I've read it three times and I'm still not sure I get it based on my understanding of the rules). So please pardon me as I take my shot at answering the question.

In the FFG version of Britannia, all armies are now invaders. Nations may raid as noted on the chart. This means that all forces at sea at the start of that nation's turn may do one of the following:

1. Remain in the sea zone where they started the turn and do nothing.
2. Move and return to the sea zone where they started the turn.
3. Move, attack, and then return to the sea zone where they started the turn.

#2 is at least a little important for the Danes on their raiding turn.

If a nation chooses #1 for some or all of the forces at sea, then they just "hang out" and wait for the next turn. This is pretty common for the Jutes, Irish, and the Scots, who have multiple raiding turns back to back and smallish forces for a bit.

If a nation isn't raiding, its armies at sea must land. Even during the first half of a major invasion, no armies can hang out at sea. During the first half of an MI, they can retreat back to sea, but then they need to land again in the second phase of the MI and then they can't retreat back to sea again.

So the only way for forces to end up at sea at the end of the turn is for a nation to have been raiding the turn before. But if the new turn is a raiding turn, then all the armies at sea are raiders whether they were just placed or not. And keep in mind - there are special rules for the Picts during their raiding turn since they never have forces at sea.

Apologies if this was long-winded and pedantic.
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Caleb
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As I understand it, you still need to think in terms of "raiding armies" of a specific nation - here's why:

If the Scots have 2 armies on land in Dalriada (from a previous turn), and they get a Raiding turn and one army in the Irish Sea, only the army that starts the turn in the Irish Sea is eligible to land, fight, and return to sea, right? And if it elects NOT to return to sea, any points scored by killing enemies on the raiding turn are foregone. You might want to do this to help the nascent Scot nation begin to build up population.

In the example above, the two Scot armies already on land at the start of the turn are not eligible to return to sea, right?
 
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H-B-G
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Correct that the armies starting on land are not eligible to return to sea.

But you do not forego any points if you choose not to retreat your armies starting at sea (at least in the FFG rules).
 
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Neil Whyman
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perfalbion wrote:

If a nation isn't raiding, its armies at sea must land.

Right! Sorry to have added confusion with my earlier post, somehow I had forgotten this vital point.
 
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Ken
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cannoneer wrote:

As I understand it, you still need to think in terms of "raiding armies" of a specific nation - here's why:


This is true, but Lew's drawing a distinction between the FFG game and the AH version. In the AH version, a "raider" was marked with a chit and retained that status until it landed or died. So it wasn't uncommon for the Scots or Irish to end up with armies at sea for a long, long time and raiding throughout.

But you're correct - only armies at sea raid unless you're discussing the Picts, which have a sidebar in the rules discussing how raiding Picts work.
 
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Caleb
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nwhyman wrote:
perfalbion wrote:

If a nation isn't raiding, its armies at sea must land.

Right! Sorry to have added confusion with my earlier post, somehow I had forgotten this vital point.


This is the one change I implemented in my AH edition of the game. None of the other changes were important enough (to me) to switch to the FFG version. But I like the requirement that, when raiding is done and the nation is an invader, there is now no more "homeland" for the raiders to return to, so they must land.

I still use the AH rules that state a raider forfeits raiding points if it stays on land, but it may score control points instead.
 
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Edward Montgomery
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perfalbion wrote:


If a nation isn't raiding, its armies at sea must land. Even during the first half of a major invasion, no armies can hang out at sea.


Ken, I'm stunned. You're so good with the rules, and this game, but I think you missed one here.

FF Rules, Page 10.

"In addition, during a Major Invasion, an army may stay at sea (not move) during the first Movement Phase. However, all the nation's armies must end their Second Movement Phase in land areas (unless they are on a Raiding turn; see below)."


I gotta say I had to play the new game once (with friends), realize I got a lot of subtle new rules wrong, then play it myself (doing all 4 parts) several times until I was convinced I'd retrained my brain to the new rule set. I really like the new version, it is better in all respects, but I had to lose some old habits and assumptions.

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Ken
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You're right. I punted that one.

It may be that there's little reason to remain at sea during the first half of an MI, so it's never even come up in our games. Unless you're going in to all difficult terrain (the Scots might have this), there's always a clear area that can take the extra army.

But I did miss that.
 
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Edward Montgomery
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perfalbion wrote:
You're right. I punted that one.

It may be that there's little reason to remain at sea during the first half of an MI, so it's never even come up in our games. Unless you're going in to all difficult terrain (the Scots might have this), there's always a clear area that can take the extra army.


Or if you're the Normans hitting a wall of Saxons.
 
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Ken
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You'd still be better putting them into the fight. You need to hit a strategic area hard so that on the next MI phase you'll be able to keep moving. Leaving them at sea won't provide much in the way of reach for the second phase. So it'd be better to make sure as many Saxons as you can kill die, then you can exploit the hole you create to the maximum potential next phase. With William in the picture, you can get three movement out of the armies on the follow-up, and that gets you more areas.

The Saxons can't end up 2 high everywhere, so you will probably have greater options for the second phase by landing everything.

But that's all theory. It all ends up coming down to your dice rolls. The Normans will likely need to hold 4-5 areas to support their invasion forces, so there's a lot of incentive to open as large a hole as you can.
 
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