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Subject: Tactical Placement Rules rss

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Christine Biancheria
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I am reading the rules for placement in the tactical game and looking at the two examples, and for some reason, I can't seem to get it. Can someone explain this? It seems to say that a tile placed adjacent to a preprinted landscape or barn has to be part of a developed region. Only then can players build out from preprinted landscapes and barns. I look at the first example, and it shows someone placing a windmill next to a preprinted tulip hex and adjacent to existing windmills. The next example shows brown placing a windmill next to a preprinted space with a governor that is NOT adjacent to existing windmills.

I guess I'm not following how the placement rules are meant to stack here. Help?
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Sebastian
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Fields can be placed only next to your own windmills
Windmills can be placed anywhere next to a developed region (means connected to the start town)
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Christine Biancheria
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And that is the same in the advanced, tactical rules? That is what they mean?

Thanks.
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Sebastian
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The only thing that is changed in the tactical rules, is that the preprinted Islands on the back of the board are used instead of randomized covert islands.
(Also note that the advanced rules record harvest and voigts can be played with normal and tactical game!)

There is also a semi-official variant (proposed by the designer on his webpage) where the island tiles are used, shuffled and placed open - that way you have a randomized tactical variant.
 
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Christine Biancheria
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I guess I just do not understand the two examples of placement in the tactical rules. I don't understand why the second one can place in the green areas and why it cannot place in the red ones.
 
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Christine Biancheria
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In other words, in Example A, why can't the windmill go in the other non-green places?

And then in Example B, why can that windmill now go where the other could not? And why is it prohibited from going in the red spaces?
 
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Steve+Jackie McKeogh
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The pre-printed hexes in the tactical game, that replace the island tiles, are not really there at the start of the game. They become 'developed' once they have been reached by the expanding 'developed area'. So, for a 'patch' of pre-printed hexes, once one of them is reached by the 'developed area' which is spreading out from the village, all the hexes in that 'patch' are instantaneously considered to be 'developed'. Until then, however, they are really just marshland.
The placement of the windmill in Example A has caused the pre-printed hexes to the left to be connected to the developed area on the right and so those pre-printed hexes are now themselves developed. This then allows the windmill in Example B to be placed. The pre-printed hexes at the top have yet to be reached by the 'developed area', hence the red spaces that are still there.
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The preprinted Hexes cannot be used until they are somehow connected to the starting region. Until then they are "islands" in the marshland which can be immediately developed as soon as a windmill is placed next to them (but the windmill must boarder with at least one sid to already deveolped land - which is connected to the starting land).
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Steve+Jackie McKeogh
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TermiGator wrote:
...Until then they are "islands" in the marshland which can be immediately developed as soon as a windmill is placed next to them (but the windmill must boarder with at least one sid to already deveolped land - which is connected to the starting land).


Whilst the examples in the rules show a windmill tile being placed in each case, the rules do not state that the connection has to be made by a windmill (they simply state 'a tile') - so in Example A, it should be perfectly okay for brown to place a crop tile where orange is placing the windmill. Such a placement would connect the printed hexes to the developed area and allow further development on the far side of those printed hexes.
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Christine Biancheria
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It still seems like there's a mistake in the second example. I can see the windmill being placed one further to the SE, but not where it is going in the picture because the new windmill does NOT seem like it connected that tile in the NW
 
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Steve+Jackie McKeogh
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Christine, sooner or later it is going to 'click' but until it does rest assured that I will be here to explain to you and confuse you further!

The windmill in the second example to the NW is legitimate.
When orange placed his windmill (example 1) it formed a continuous 'chain' from the village (which is just out of view on the right) to the tulip field and from there to the cabbage field. Until that moment there was no continuous connection from the village to either the cabbage field or the tulip field and so they were not really there until the orange windmill was placed (i.e. they are printed only to reduce the luck in the game but they are not real cropland until the chain of development from the village has reached them).

Warning! If it hasn't clicked yet don't read any further!
Okay, now imagine that the turn order for the examples was brown, orange rather than orange, brown.
Brown could place a crop tile in the space to the left of his windmill (i.e. the same space used for placing the orange windmill in example 1). This would make a continuous chain from the village to the cabbage field on the left (via the newly placed tile and the printed tulip field). So, orange could then place his windmill 'beyond' the cabbage field (e.g. the same space used for placing the brown windmill in example 2).

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Sebastian
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Please just make sure, you read the Basic rules Section 2 again:
A mill has to be placed on an empty field which has to border the already developed area.

The islands in the basegame are not developed.
Only when someone places a mill next to them they immediatley get developed.

In the tactical game the islands are also not developed (although already visible), but they will connect to the already developed area as soon as any tile is placed next to them.
but they get developed as soon as they are connected to the already developed area (by any tile).

(Edit in Italics)
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Stephan Valkyser
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TermiGator wrote:
Please just make sure, you read the Basic rules Section 2 again:
A mill has to be placed on an empty field which has to border the already developed area.

The islands in the basegame are not developed.
Only when someone places a mill next to them they immediatley get developed.

In the tactical game the islands are also not developed (although already visible), but they will connect to the already developed area as soon as any tile is placed next to them.


So this means, that example B in the rulebook is wrong, am I right?
 
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Sebastian
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Stephan Valkyser wrote:
So this means, that example B in the rulebook is wrong, am I right?

No, the rulebook is right, you are wrong. But I clarified my explanation.
 
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Stephan Valkyser
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TermiGator wrote:
Stephan Valkyser wrote:
So this means, that example B in the rulebook is wrong, am I right?

No, the rulebook is right, you are wrong. But I clarified my explanation.


So the "islands" work differently than in the basic game, right?
In the basic game, a mill was needed to develop an island. In the "tactical game" any tile is sufficient.
Am I correct?
 
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Sebastian
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Stephan Valkyser wrote:

So the "islands" work differently than in the basic game, right?
In the basic game, a mill was needed to develop an island. In the "tactical game" any tile is sufficient.
Am I correct?


Yeah, thats right.
 
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Michael "Tie-Dyed-Eyes"
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I think Christine has a valid question; I've read all of your responses and none of them seem to fully address what she is asking.

In the Example "Tactical game" B, I can see how placing the orange mill reclaims the Tulip 4 space, but see no rationale for the orange mill also reclaiming the Cabbage 4 space (which is not adjacent), and then considering it "developed." And if that Cabbage 4 has not yet been reclaimed, and is not part of the development, how can the Brown Mill 3 be legally placed there?

In the basic rules, when a mill is placed, any island tiles that are adjacent to the mill get flipped over. But other hill tiles next to those reclaimed hill tiles do not also get flipped over in a sort of chain reaction. So those unflipped, yet "connected" tiles wouldn't be considered developed.

Sebastian's claim that...
Quote:
"The only thing that is changed in the tactical rules, is that the preprinted Islands on the back of the board are used instead of randomized covert islands."


But Steve+Jackie's explanation seems to require a whole new system where the swampland is drained and developed merely by planting tulip seeds, rather than building a mill and pumping out the water. It doesn't seem to jive for me.

Steve+Jackie: Does this idea come from an authoritative source? (ie, Designer, publisher, etc?)

Sebastian: in your explanation...
Quote:
In the tactical game the islands are also not developed (although already visible), but they will connect to the already developed area as soon as any tile is placed next to them.
but they get developed as soon as they are connected to the already developed area (by any tile).


...where did you get the words "by any tile?"

Thanks for your feedback.

Michael;
 
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Steve Duff
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Ok, let's try again with some pictures. Here's example A, I've added some labels, "Tile" for physical tiles that have been placed, "Pre" for pre-printed tiles, and numbers for the eligible spots to place mills on.

There are 5 legal spaces for Orange to place his mill, numbered 1 to 5. Number 1 is hard to see, as it's nearly off the photo. These 5 green checkmarked spots are all adjacent to tiles that are active, or "in the game" so to speak. The 3 pre-printed tiles at this point are inactive, so "do not exist", so the spots next to them are ineligible, and are red checkmarked.

Green Spot 4 is eligible to be placed on because it's next to the Brown Mill 5 tile. Orange does so, leading us to example B:



When Orange placed his mill in spot 4, new spaces became eligible to place mills on. Spots 6 and 9 are adjacent to Orange Mill 4 so they become available.

The pre-printed Tulip 4 space now "pops into existence" as developed land, since it is now adjacent to the physical tiles. Functionally, it is now a physical tile and should be treated as such.

Since the Tulip 4 is now developed land, the Cabbage 4 tile with the Governor on is now adjacent to developed land, so it too "pops into existence" and is now developed land. Consider it a chain reaction.

Spots 7, 8 and 10 are now eligible to build on, because they are adjacent to developed land (the two now active pre-printed tiles). The 3 red X spots remaining are not eligible because they are adjacent to the pre-printed Cabbage 4 which is still not active.

Not pictured, but after Brown places his 3 mill on spot 10, the two leftmost red X's will now be eligible to build on.
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Sebastian
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Quote:
Sebastian: in your explanation...
Quote:
In the tactical game the islands are also not developed (although already visible), but they will connect to the already developed area as soon as any tile is placed next to them.
but they get developed as soon as they are connected to the already developed area (by any tile).


...where did you get the words "by any tile?"

Thanks for your feedback.

Michael;


I get that from the rules:
Quote:
A tile that is placed alongside pre-printed landscapes/farms must also be connected to the developed area. Only then can players develop more land starting from the pre-printed landscape/farm.


It says "a tile" not "a mill". Therfore a connection via farm is good for me.

For anything else see Steves excellent explanation.
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Michael "Tie-Dyed-Eyes"
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Thanks for going to such lengths to try to explain it to me. Somehow I read the same word you do, and come to the exact opposite opinion, but yours is borne out by the illustration. Thanks again.
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Michael Frost

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It appears it all comes down to this specific rule, as written:

"A tile that is placed alongside pre-printed landscapes/farms must also be connected to the developed area. Only then can players develop more land starting from the pre-printed landscape/farm."

A key is that the 1st sentence just says "A tile". It doesn't say "A mill tile" or "A landscape tile". The base game plays out with the "A mile tile" requirement to turn over the hidden landscape tiles. The "Tactical game" does not.

The "problem" or "issue", though it is clearly shown in the example on the "Tactical game" rule page, is that activating one pre-printed landscape tile then also simultaneously actives any and all other pre-printed landscape tiles that are adjacent to the one landscape tile that was just activated. This is from the example, but is not clearly stated as a written rule.

So the "Tactical game" does play differently than the "Non-tactical game" in this regard.
 
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