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Descent: The Road to Legend» Forums » Rules

Subject: Punching sleeping heroes rss

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Amado Angulo
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In the FAQ is specified that a hero must roll all of his dice when attacking another hero. It is NOT specified that a hero can't unequip his weapon and punch a hero (using only the red die + melee trait).

So, can a mage or ranged character (0 melee dice) punch the other heroes to wake them up during an ambush? (0 armor, thus1 - 4 wounds)
 
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Ed Rozmiarek
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From the Descent base rules, page 19:

Quote:
Unarmed Attacks
If a hero attacks without a weapon, he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants one red die and has no special abilities.

Note that is says nothing about the "type" of hero. In fact, the rules never mention anything about hero "types". There are no "melee", "ranged" or "magic" heroes, just heroes with trait dice. Nothing stops a hero with three magic trait dice from using a sword or bow. They just don't get any power dice.
 
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Amado Angulo
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edroz wrote:
From the Descent base rules, page 19:

Quote:
Unarmed Attacks
If a hero attacks without a weapon, he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants one red die and has no special abilities.

Note that is says nothing about the "type" of hero. In fact, the rules never mention anything about hero "types". There are no "melee", "ranged" or "magic" heroes, just heroes with trait dice. Nothing stops a hero with three magic trait dice from using a sword or bow. They just don't get any power dice.


Yeah, what I meant is that, for the purposes of waking up a hero (if this is possible and that would be the question) it's better for a hero with 0 melee dice to punch someone, because as soon as he inflicts 1 wound to the sleeping hero, he would wake up. I abbreviate things by writing "a mage or ranged character", but I meant with no dice in his melee trait.
 
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Ed Rozmiarek
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And what I was trying to get across is that any hero can perform any type of attack, no matter the number or type of trait dice they have. So yes, a hero with no melee trait dice can make a melee attack, be it with his fist or a sword. There are no classes of heroes in Descent. Every hero can perform each type of attack, they may or may not get power dice with their attack.
 
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Proto Persona
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amajo wrote:
edroz wrote:
From the Descent base rules, page 19:

Quote:
Unarmed Attacks
If a hero attacks without a weapon, he attacks with his fists. This is a melee attack that grants one red die and has no special abilities.

Note that is says nothing about the "type" of hero. In fact, the rules never mention anything about hero "types". There are no "melee", "ranged" or "magic" heroes, just heroes with trait dice. Nothing stops a hero with three magic trait dice from using a sword or bow. They just don't get any power dice.


Yeah, what I meant is that, for the purposes of waking up a hero (if this is possible and that would be the question) it's better for a hero with 0 melee dice to punch someone, because as soon as he inflicts 1 wound to the sleeping hero, he would wake up. I abbreviate things by writing "a mage or ranged character", but I meant with no dice in his melee trait. :)

There is nothing the rules or FAQ that I can find that prevents you from doing this. Personally I like using the house rule that the OL takes his turn first on an ambush, similar to how SoB operates. Makes the "punch the gang to wake them up real fast" tactic moot really.
 
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Johannes Albani
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uhmmm, i am pretty sure that you don´t have to use ANY power dice at all, no matter how many traits you have.
 
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Proto Persona
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CJoe wrote:
uhmmm, i am pretty sure that you don´t have to use ANY power dice at all, no matter how many traits you have.
According to the FAQ when a hero targets another hero they are required to roll every die that would apply to that attack, thus all of their trait dice.
 
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Jeff Long
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Yes, but you may always use "Power Enhancements" for range, even on Melee attacks. Melee attacks then ignore rolled range. Therefore, if you don't WANT to use your Trait dice for damage, you may as well not roll them, because you are not forced to use them.

I agree it is a little silly, but it is, I believe, fairly clear from the rules that this is the way it works. I also agree that it completely breaks the intended effectiveness of Ambushes in RtL.
 
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T. B.
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The_Immortal wrote:
I also agree that it completely breaks the intended effectiveness of Ambushes in RtL.


I dunno, a red die does an average of 2.6 damage, and a maximum of 4. That's not bad for a "free" hit when you ignore armor.

And is it really written that you can use a black die result for range even if you aren't making a ranged attack?

Edit: Answering my own question- No, "range results are ignored during melee attacks". How could you take a result that is "ignored"? In other words, you're obliged to take any damage results on power dice because the range result effectively does not exist.
 
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Corbon Loughnan
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bohemian wrote:
The_Immortal wrote:
I also agree that it completely breaks the intended effectiveness of Ambushes in RtL.


I dunno, a red die does an average of 2.6 damage, and a maximum of 4. That's not bad for a "free" hit when you ignore armor.

And is it really written that you can use a black die result for range even if you aren't making a ranged attack?

Edit: Answering my own question- No, "range results are ignored during melee attacks". How could you take a result that is "ignored"? In other words, you're obliged to take any damage results on power dice because the range result effectively does not exist.


Easy. You take that result, add it to the attack, then at the end ignore the (boosted) range of the attack because it does not apply.

DJitD pg9
For every power enhancement a player rolls during an attack, he may increase either the range or the damage of the attack by 1. (FFG bolds, not mine)
You get to choose, on any enhancement rolled during an attack (note no exception for melee attacks), whether you wish to choose range or damage for that enhancement.

DJitD pg11
However, a melee attack only misses if a miss result is rolled. Range results are ignored during melee attacks.
This passage is discussing misses. You do not miss (a melee attack) through having inadequate range to hit an adjacent space (range 1 would be required normally, Range 2 for a Reach attack etc). Note that the passage says that the range result (of the attack) is ignored, not that range on the dice are ignored or that dice with range are ignored or that dice cannot have ranged options chosen or anything else.

You can choose enhancements to limit damage and you can refuse to spend surges.
It's practically the only reason Jonas the Gentle is so useful! (ok, his gear can't be broken either).

FAQ pg6
Q: Can heroes willingly target and hit other heroes?
A: Yes, although they must roll their full compliment of dice. In these cases, hero players may opt not to spend all their surges to limit the damage they deal, but the heroes still must consider very carefully before deciding to use this tactic!
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T. B.
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See, you're interpreting "result" to mean "result of the player's choice", whereas I believe that "result" refers to "result of the dice roll". If you ignore any range result that appears on the dice BEFORE you choose whether you are using the damage or range on an enhancement, then it stands to reason that you simply can't choose to use the range in a melee attack.

Why do I think that it's the result of the roll that matters, rather than the result of the choice? Because, as you say:

corbon wrote:


FAQ pg6
Q: Can heroes willingly target and hit other heroes?
A: Yes, although they must roll their full compliment of dice. In these cases, hero players may opt not to spend all their surges to limit the damage they deal, but the heroes still must consider very carefully before deciding to use this tactic!


Why, on earth, would a hero be required to roll power dice in such a situation if they would literally contribute nothing to the attack? A hero would ALWAYS choose to take the range rather than the damage, rendering the power dice completely useless. If the designer intended the heroes to be able to limit the damage in this way, why wouldn't they have simply taken the power dice out of the equation altogether?

As far as Jonas the Gentle is concerned, I suppose that his ability would only be useful when making ranged or magic attacks. Which kind of sucks, I guess, but not any more than many of the other hero characters, and not as much as the reduction in the effectiveness of an ambush which would result from your interpretation.
 
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Retired Hurt

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Jonas would have some freedom of choice when using a weapon with more than one possible use of surges, e.g. Shadowblade or Shillelagh.
Also, getting the right amount of damage can be achieved by adding power dice.

As for the main problem, I have no firm opinion, but starting from the principle that the game designers expressed themselves in the perfect way to match their intentions without any risk of ambiguity could be deemed naive when seeing some other messes.
 
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T. B.
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Merrimac wrote:
Jonas would have some freedom of choice when using a weapon with more than one possible use of surges, e.g. Shadowblade or Shillelagh.
Also, getting the right amount of damage can be achieved by adding power dice.

As for the main problem, I have no firm opinion, but starting from the principle that the game designers expressed themselves in the perfect way to match their intentions without any risk of ambiguity could be deemed naive when seeing some other messes.


Well, I absolutely agree with that, and clearly, there's plenty of ambiguity here to go around. But I think that the designer's intention seems to be that a melee attack on another hero should be a risky proposition, so I believe any ambiguities should be interpreted within that context.
 
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