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Subject: 25 points Mosh Pit: eVlad vs Siege rss

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We have finally gotten WM back on the table and last night played Mosh Pit with eVlad vs Siege.

Lists:
Me:
Vladimir Tzepesci, the Dark Champion +5
Juggernaut 7
Iron Fang Pikemen (Leader and 5 Grunts) 5
ManOWar Shocktroopers (Leader and 4 Grunts) 9
ManOWar Drakhun (without dismount) 4
ManOWar Kovnik 3
Widowmaker Marksman 2
Vs
Seige Brisbane +5
Reinholdt 1
Defender 9
Ironclad 7
Hunter 6
6 Trenchers 7
Stormsmith 1

Terrain:
Going from left to right in Brisbane’s deployment zone there was a circular hut centered in the zone at the forward edge of the deployment zone.

Going from left to right in the area between deployment zones, there were two buildings on the far left maybe six inches off the left board edge, these buildings did not come into play at all. Then along the center line was another building that was adjacent to the mosh pit area. Then the mosh pit (we use a big piece of circular felt). On the right, centered on the centerline, about 8 inches off the right board edge, was another building.

Going from left to right in Vlad’s deployment zone there was a square building centered in the zone at the forward edge of the deployment zone.

Brisbane won the right to decide player order and elected to deploy and go first. From my point of view from left to right after advance deployment his forces were set up as follows: The Defender, Brisbane and the Ironclad were set up to the left of the hut at the front of edge of the deployment zone. Reinholdt and the Stormsmith were behind Brisbane. The hunter advanced deployed 16” to my far right, roughly 8” from my right table edge. The Trenchers deployed 16” forward directly in front of the pit area.

Vlad’s forces were deployed in a line at the front edge of deployment from left to right as follows: Drakhun on the far end of the line, probably 10” from my left table edge, Iron Fang pikeman in groups of two shield walled with the Kovnik behind. Then there was a 5 inch building in my deployment zone, then the Juggernaut, the Man-O-War unit shield walled with each other next to him. The widowmaker marksman was AD 16” to my far right roughly 8” off the right board edge.

Turn 1 Brisbane
Brisbane assigned one focus to each jack. The Trenchers advanced into the pit area and dug in. The hunter moved up to the building on the right and hid behind it. The stormsmith advanced toward the building, the defender ran toward the mosh pit, but stayed just on the edge of it. The ironclad, siege and reinholdt ran toward the mosh pit as well.

Turn 1 Vlad
Vlad assigned one focus to the Juggernaut. The Drakhun ran and hugged the left (non-pit) side of the building adjacent to the pit. The Iron Fangs advanced slightly to the right toward the pit, staying shield-walled in groups of two, toward the pit. The Kovnik ran between them. The ManOWar unit shield-walled directly forward. Vlad cast Assail on the Juggernaut, advanced to the right, centering himself behind the ManOWar unit and cast Transference on himself. The Juggernaut ran forward, but didn’t run his full 8”. The Widowmaker marksman didn’t move, took a shot at a dug in trencher and was just out range by a quarter inch. (nuts!!)

Turn 2 Brisbane
Brisbane assigned 2 focus to the defender, 1 to the Ironclad and 2 to the hunter. The Stormsmith moved to the left away from the building to get LOS on the Drakhun. The Drakhun elected not to countercharge. (Okay, okay, I forgot). The Stormsmith made his Stormcall skillcheck, but did no damage to the Drakhun. The Defender maneuvered away from the mosh pit to get LOS at the Drakhun (he was not within 6” to countercharge) and boosted his attack and damage roll and inflicted 5 points of damage. The trenchers stayed where they were and the Ironclad moved up among them. Brisbane took two shots (because of Reinholdt) and the Hunter took a shot at the Juggernaut and they did about 12 total damage but didn’t take any systems out. Brisbane’s boosted damage roll was not that good.

Turn 2 Vlad
Vlad assigned no focus to the Juggernaut, but upkept Assail and Transference. The Drakhun didn’t move and used his shield cannon to kill the Stormsmith standing in front of him. The Kovnik advanced into the Mosh Pit and hit the Ironclad with an Axe Cannon shot, doing about 4 points of damage to the warjack. The Juggernaut then attempted to charge the Ironclad but came up about 1.5” short. I was pretty sure he was short, but since he charges farther with assail then he does with running, I just failed the charge. (If I would have ran my full 8” the previous turn, he would have made it.) The IF Pikeman ran into the pit and 5 were able to engage the Ironclad and 3 of the trenchers, the last one just couldn’t get in. The ManOWar advanced in Shieldwall forward, moving slightly left toward the pit. Vlad advanced behind them and then cast Hand of Fate on them. The Marksman advanced toward the trenchers, hit an unengaged trencher at Def 17 and killed him.

Turn 3 Brisbane
Brisbane assigned 2 focus to each warjack, leaving himself with none. He then activated Brisbane, moved him forward into the pit behind the right end of the trencher line and popped his feat. He used Ground Pounder to cover three ManOWar and Vlad with the template. The shot hit all three ManOWar, but missed Vlad. The damage to each ManOWar was 4, 6 and 7, because of the feat. But thanks to shieldwall, all three were still alive. Brisbane then took another shot at the ManOWar that had 4 damage and inflicted two more. The hunter then took a boosted shot at the same ManOWar and despite boosted armor piecing damage, was only able to inflict 1 point, leaving him with 1 point of damage remaining. The Defender boosted his hit and damage against the Kovnik and with Seige’s feat, killed him easily. The Ironclad moved up and engaged one Iron Fang Pikeman and the Juggernaut. He promptly wrecked the Jug and killed the Pikeman. The Trenchers then Assaulted the Pikeman, but only one was able to make an actual Assault attack. The Trenchers did manage to kill two of the Pikeman, forcing a massive casualties check, which they failed.

Now, the game should have ended here as I had no non-fleeing units in the mosh pit but neither of us recognized what had happened.

Turn 3 Vlad
Vlad upkept Hand of Fate and Transference. The Marksman targeted a trencher in front of Brisbane and killed him. Vlad activated and moved to the left around the ManOWar unit, cast a boosted to hit Razor Wind at the other trencher in front of Brisbane and killed him. Then he popped his feat and 5 ManOWar and 1 IronFang felt the Blood Legacy of their ancestors. With the path cleared and the speed gained, the 3 wounded ManOWar were able to charge Brisbane, the first inflicting 16 damage to him, the second killing him. The third killed Reinholdt because of his contempt for the gobber.

So a caster kill victory for Vlad... or so we thought.

Regardless, it was a fun and interesting game.

Mk II is a definite improvement on an already great miniatures system. If you like miniature games, definitely give it a shot.
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Graham Smallwood
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TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
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Could you please be specific about what is improved in Mk2? I gave up the game years ago, but just yesterday went and got the new Cygnar rules to check out Mk2. I honestly can't see a difference. I thought the caster warjack point system would be a cool balancing system. But everybody just has either 5 or 6. Feats are still boring-overpowered (silly Darius) and infantry are still more important than giant steam powered killing machines (I checked the forums for Mk2 tourney lists, plus 6 human trenchers are the same point cost as my beloved Ironclad).

I wasn't hoping for a different game (modernizing the initiative system or changing armor rolls), but I was really hoping for more robots and less Reinholdt and Eiryss.
 
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Graham Smallwood
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TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
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jayg wrote:

Of course feats are powerful, it's a character driven game, it's built that way. The entire game is built around the dance between the two warcasters.

Jacks are stronger, more capable of doing damage.You must take a certain amount of points as Jacks. This varies based on the caster. These two changes ensure that the game is actually about warmachines. No longer are jacks a waste of points.


Well yeah, that's what I heard and why I bought Mk2. But the stats of the jacks didn't change. And the required jacks rule is 1 for everybody. And you can't say that the game is all about the warcasters and also all about the jacks in back to back paragraphs.
 
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The biggest two changes that makes all the difference in the world are simply these:

Warjacks used to be disabled when three systems were taken out. Now a warjack is still going until the last box is gone.

And the effects of losing systems has changed to be much less severe.

As an example: Remember what happened when you lost your movement boxes? Your jack could move 1", that was it. Pretty much a mission kill. Now when you lose your movement boxes, you can't charge, slam or (I think) run. But you still can move your speed and go places.

If the boxes for an arm system are taken out, it still operates and can attack, it just rolls one less die for hit and damage. This can be mitigated by boosting those rolls.

A third important change was the recognition of the real power to make something stationary or to knock it down. When these things happened to you, you were just stuck with the consequences. Now they have introduced shake effects for Warjacks and Warcasters. By spending a focus, a jack/caster that has suffered these effects can ignore them. Non-Warcaster warrior models cannot do this.

To your point about 1 Warjack and a lot of infantry: This is still a viable build but is not the only build and can lose to a nearly all warjack force because of the survivablity of those opposing warjacks. Your best build really depends on your warcaster. In my game, eVlad works best with warrior models, so a 1 jack force works better for him.

Hope this helps!!

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Graham Smallwood
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jayg wrote:

Quote:

And you can't say that the game is all about the warcasters and also all about the jacks in back to back paragraphs.



Well, I could say that, but I didn't.


jayg wrote:

it's a character driven game
.
.
.
the game is actually about warmachines


Did too.


But anyway, the disable rule change is awesome! That is the big big change I was looking for. My Hunter had 7 hit points if he lost his gun, and my Ironclad had I think 10 if he lost his legs. Now they have triple the (effective) hitpoints.

And focus can shed Stationary and Prone? No holding Big Poppa (my Ironclad) at arm's length like a little kid and making him cry as he swings futilely under your arm? Dare I hope I don't have to go get a pop when Sorcha uses her feat?

I don't have a problem with the general balanced-high nature of the game if my giant robots actually get to play it.
 
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Rakielis
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-simplified turn structure (mainly involving spells and when they occur)
-made it harder to kill jacks (you have to completely box them now)
-made jacks more accurate across the board
-made jacks deal more damage across the board
-made jacks less "deniable" (you can spend focus to stand them up if they are knocked down, etc)
-losing systems isn't quite as critical
-nerfed some spells (typically by raising their cost)
-nerfed a lot of infantry (poor trenchers and their smoke)
-nerfed a lot of solos HARD (often in round about ways - eiryss)
-removed all first turn kills (may not be true...i think someone just found one, but its really obvious)
-simplified point system (yay)
-massively simplified line of sight rules (if base can see base, they can see each other. no more funny arranging of models).
-new faction!!!
-new caster, jack and infantry in every current army
-not directly related, but a resurrection of players has been nice

now as far as point costs go, there is more to them than just point cost. for example, a 10 man trencher crew costs 10 points while thunderhead cost 12. however, the trenches simply CANT kill thunderhead (with his 30 health or so) and he can wipe all 10 in a single turn with his star attack (a pulse that auto hits everything in 6 inches of him). no matter how cheap the jacks become though, you still can't run more jacks than your caster can support. around the 30 point line, casters start to have trouble supporting anymore jacks. so larger games won't see an increase in jack numbers, but will be bringing more infantry.

personally, i think it has hit a really nice balance of infantry vs jacks. some casters do better with just 1 or 2 jacks while others can run jack only lists (karchev and nemo!). if you read the fluff, only a small percentage of the armies are jacks and they are only around where the warcasters are. in the cygnar book, kara goes into battle with a few defenders (never says number but it sounds like 4 or so to me) and she also takes with her trenchers, long gunners, gun mages and i think sword knights (dont have the book with me). thats around 40 infantry and only 4 jacks. so the idea of a 35 point game (the standard) being 3 or 4 jacks with around 20-30 infantry is exactly what im hoping for.

over all, i really love this game. it is LOTS of fun.
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