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Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fungus vs. Antimatter rss

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Chris Withem

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How would you calculate this battle? Do the stacks hurt or help Fungus?

Probably when Fungus is a main player it hurts him, but what about when fungus is an ally? Does fungus's stack turn into negative stack? or does the negative ship add to the stack thus reducing its value only by a little? I'm so confused....!!
 
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Matthew Cary
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Each ship in a stack is considered a ship in the encounter. As such, the ships in a stack act exactly the same as normal ships would.

So, as an ally Fungus's stacks become "negative ships" to help antimatter. (Just like all of Antimatter's allies do) As defense or an ally opposing Antimatter they hurt Fungus.

But then that is true of most "extra ships" powers when they run into Antimatter.
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Toomai Glittershine
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Jhamin wrote:
As defense or an ally opposing Antimatter they hurt Fungus.
Uh, what? Allies on both sides become negative.
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Jefferson Krogh
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
Jhamin wrote:
As defense or an ally opposing Antimatter they hurt Fungus.
Uh, what? Allies on both sides become negative.


I get this wrong all the time too. Allies on both offense and defense subtract from the total when Anti-Matter is involved, so a big allied Fungus stack would subtract as well.
 
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Andy Leber
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Right. Fungus is at a disadvantage as main player only, against Anti-Matter. Correct?
 
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Matthew Cary
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Sorry sorry! blush I was posting *way* to late at night there. As a few others have commented, allies always help when Anti-Matter is involved.

Basically, what I was trying to communicate is that I think you are over-thinking how Fungus' power works. For the purposes of how they interact with other powers, the stacks of ships should be treated as however many ships are in the stack. So if you send one stack with seven ships in it, you have seven ships in the encounter for the purposes of stuff like Anti-Matter, Virus's Super Flare, and so on.
 
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Chris Withem

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Fungus wrote:

You have the power to Adhere. As a main player or ally, after you win an encounter in which you have at least one ship, use this power to capture any losing ships, stacking them under one or more of your ships in the encounter instead of sending them to the warp (effects that would save ships from the warp, such as Zombie's or Healer's power, cannot prevent this). Captured ships do not have special characteristics, e.g., Macron ships are not worth four. These stacks are controlled by you. Each stack is considered to be one ship for purposes of play. Ships that are part of a stack are only freed when the stack enters the warp. Freed ships are returned to normal and may leave the warp as usual.

As a main player or ally in an encounter, after encounter cards are revealed, use this power. Each stack you have in the encounter adds the number of ships is contains to your side's total instead of 1. Zapping this power does not free any captured ships.


Anti-Matter wrote:

You have the power of Negation. As a main player, after both you and your opponent reveal attack cards, use this power to make the lower total win. Furthermore, when this power is used, you ships as well as any offensive and defensive allies' ships are subtracted from the appropriate side's card. Your opponent's total is otherwise figured normally, however.


I agree with both posts above that fungus would help anti-matter as an ally, but only hurt himself as a main player. The only thing i can't find is "proof." The part that is tripping me up is the "instead of 1" clause in fungus's text. My table is heavily rule lawyered and its a bit of a nuisance. This is really my only reason for asking.
 
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NoobSauce wrote:
Fungus wrote:


As a main player or ally in an encounter, after encounter cards are revealed, use this power. Each stack you have in the encounter adds the number of ships is contains to your side's total instead of 1. Zapping this power does not free any captured ships.


I agree with both posts above that fungus would help anti-matter as an ally, but only hurt himself as a main player. The only thing i can't find is "proof." The part that is tripping me up is the "instead of 1" clause in fungus's text.


Explain that line in Fungus to the lawyers as follows: unless Fungus is zapped, the number of ships it contributes to its side isn't the number of stacks, but rather the total number of all ships in all the stacks it sent. (Each stack of one-fungus-ship-plus-others isn't worth 1 ship, it is worth a number of ships equal to the whole stack. Separate extra fungus ships into separate 'stacks of 1 each' if needed.)

THEN, after Fungus allots that many ships to its side, Antimatter kicks in and makes those ships count negative if Fungus isn't the opposing main player. Fungoid stacks help so long as Fungus isn't adding them to its own defense or offense.

That said, it is *always* in Antimatter's interest to attack colonies with large numbers of ships on them, exactly opposite from the normal pattern. And as a defender, Fungus and every other ship power have an incentive to zap either their own power or Antimatter to prevent the perverse penalty.
 
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Jeff Finazzo
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So we've taken a really long way around to : Allies always help their side.
 
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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I agree with this interpretation; you have to understand Anti-Matter to be converting additions into subtractions. However, it is debatable how far you take this conversion: Wild Macron? Warpish? Wild Warpish? The ships on Leviathan's worldship? (Not the planet itself, because it's not a ship.) The Prometheus?

I do wish they would take a little more care in writing these game texts (we've had a few decades to see all this coming). There's already a good precedent on some cards of saying "count toward" instead of "add". Super Leviathan gets this right, and so does (ironically) Wild Fungus.

Anyway, the Fungus alien text should be understood to say something like "As a main player or ally in an encounter, after encounter cards are revealed, use this power. Each stack you have in the encounter adds counts as the number of ships it contains toward your side's total instead of 1."

I've made the same edit to my version of Macron: "Each of your ships adds counts as 4 toward your side’s total in the encounter instead of 1."
 
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Andy Leber
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Bill Martinson wrote:
I agree with this interpretation; you have to understand Anti-Matter to be converting additions into subtractions. However, it is debatable how far you take this conversion: Wild Macron? Warpish? Wild Warpish? The ships on Leviathan's worldship? (Not the planet itself, because it's not a ship.)

I do wish they would take a little more care in writing these game texts (we've had a few decades to see all this coming). There's already a good precedent on some cards of saying "count toward" instead of "add". Super Leviathan gets this right, and so does (ironically) Wild Fungus.

Anyway, the Fungus alien text should be understood to say something like "As a main player or ally in an encounter, after encounter cards are revealed, use this power. Each stack you have in the encounter adds counts as the number of ships it contains toward your side's total instead of 1."

I've made the same edit to my version of Macron: "Each of your ships adds counts as 4 toward your side’s total in the encounter instead of 1."


Wait, you seem to be saying the opposite that I understood. "counts as" or "towards your sides total" suggests to me that Fungus ships would HELP against the Antimatter. Did we not establish that it's a handicap? (as main player)

Antimatter wants to attack large stacks and avoid small stacks... no? Likewise, I think being the Macron should HURT the macron against the Antimatter.

Antimatter's power only says that allies are deducted from his opponents total, everything else is normal.

Or did I misunderstand you?
 
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Holmes108 wrote:
Wait, you seem to be saying the opposite that I understood. "counts as" or "towards your sides total" suggests to me that Fungus ships would HELP against the Antimatter. Did we not establish that it's a handicap? (as main player)

Antimatter wants to attack large stacks and avoid small stacks... no? Likewise, I think being the Macron should HURT the macron against the Antimatter.

Antimatter's power only says that allies are deducted from his opponents total, everything else is normal.

Or did I misunderstand you?

I think you did. I'm not trying to make Fungus and Macron stronger when they are main players against Anti-Matter. I'm trying to make it more clear that Fungus and Macron subtract when they are allies and Anti-Matter is a main player. I'm just resolving the conflict between "add" and "subtract" and the other conflict between "add" and "multiply".

All I'm saying is that these effects should not say "add" but should say "count toward", which is more neutral language. Macron and Fungus and The Prometheus should never tell us how much they "add" to an encounter; they should only tell us what their ships are worth, and then we simply look to the default rules and other special effects to tell us when that value is added, subtracted, or multipled (or even something different on some future card).

No matter what, Anti-Matter still says "Your opponent’s total is otherwise figured normally". I'm not changing that.
 
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Andy Leber
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Ah yes, as allies I agree. I thought you were saying that as main player the fungus subtracts his stack. My apologies.
 
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