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Subject: How balanced is it, and how to determine sides in tournament? rss

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Larry Fryer
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I've played this awesome game eight times since it was re-issued and the British have won all but one of them. I was wondering how others have found it to be balanced. Maybe we just don't know how to play the Allies? I also am wondering if there is a bid system (i.e., I'll play the British and give you two additional PC control during set-up) for tournament/competitive play. I love this game, but find the Allies difficult to play with due to the yearly attrition. I rate it a solid 9.5.
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Joel Toppen
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We used a tournament in playtesting (it was run publicly on the CSW forum). Guys found the American side has a steeper learning curve. See the playbook notes for some tips.

Glad you like the game!

-Joel
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Larry Fryer
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Thanks. It is an AWESOME game.
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Aaron Cappocchi
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I didn't win my first couple of games as the Americans, but once you figure them out it's pretty evenly matched.

Some tips:

Once you figure out that "Armies with 1 CU do not suffer Winter Attrition" rule is an advantage - use it. The British will have giant, slow moving armies camped in forts and coastal cities, but they'll never be able to move as easily as you can. When you can move a nimble general with 1 CU into position to flip linchpin cities in say, 5 states, and the British will only be able to respond to 1 or 2 of them, you are gaining ground. Who cares if they smash Lafayette and his 1 CU Army? Bring him another 1 CU next year and move him somewhere to flip a red PC in the year-end Political Control phase.

Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you. And when you decide to battle them on your terms, the battle happens every time.

Don't ever (or very rarely) use a 1 OPS card to place 1 PC - if you reinforce you can place a General, 1 CU, and a free PC (at the end of the turn) in any empty space. When there are 6 of these, plus Washington and maybe Rochambeau, scattered about the map, the British won't know which way to turn, or which way the threat is coming from.
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James Ridgway
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Allow me to rephrase the question. How would you go about having players bid for which side they want to play? In Twilight Struggle, I believe extra influence for Americans was used. Would you use political control markers, CU's, position on the French Intervention track? I have not played and have no idea.
 
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Nick Avtges
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agentzen wrote:
I didn't win my first couple of games as the Americans, but once you figure them out it's pretty evenly matched.

Some tips:

Once you figure out that "Armies with 1 CU do not suffer Winter Attrition" rule is an advantage - use it. The British will have giant, slow moving armies camped in forts and coastal cities, but they'll never be able to move as easily as you can. When you can move a nimble general with 1 CU into position to flip linchpin cities in say, 5 states, and the British will only be able to respond to 1 or 2 of them, you are gaining ground. Who cares if they smash Lafayette and his 1 CU Army? Bring him another 1 CU next year and move him somewhere to flip a red PC in the year-end Political Control phase.

Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you. And when you decide to battle them on your terms, the battle happens every time.

Don't ever (or very rarely) use a 1 OPS card to place 1 PC - if you reinforce you can place a General, 1 CU, and a free PC (at the end of the turn) in any empty space. When there are 6 of these, plus Washington and maybe Rochambeau, scattered about the map, the British won't know which way to turn, or which way the threat is coming from.


Quoted for excellence.
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Aaron Cappocchi
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You would use PC markers - in We The People players bid PC placements they would give the other side if they could have their chosen side. On average this resulted in the Americans granting Britain 2 extra PC's.

Joel mentioned this in another thread. It is presumably or hopefully balanced, as it is incorporated into WW as the 2 PC's Britain gets at game setup (King's Men.)
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Larry Fryer
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Wow, thanks for the keen insight. I will employ your expertly described tactics against my friend Doug next match and make him taste the "bile" of defeat! You are right, the British are very difficult to move. I also keep forgetting about Washington's +2 battle modifier, if he attacks with the last Strategy Card played in a year, which could be a viable option, especially if attacking a wintering spot.
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Patrick Bauer
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Cavalry Man wrote:
I will employ your expertly described tactics against my friend Doug next match and make him taste the "bile" of defeat!


And THAT |^^^| is why we all play war games. Thumbs for you.
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Randy
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Quote:
Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you.


Wow. I just re-read this rule based on your comment. I had totally missed the +2 bonus for Washington and Green. That makes the American's Retreat Before Battle ability hugely important. Without the bonus I've been thinking that this ability to retreat wasn't really playing-out well in the game--- it had been one of my very few critiques.

Thanks for taking me to school.
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Mark Herman
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Harry Paget Flashman wrote:
Quote:
Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you.


Wow. I just re-read this rule based on your comment. I had totally missed the +2 bonus for Washington and Green. That makes the American's Retreat Before Battle ability hugely important. Without the bonus I've been thinking that this ability to retreat wasn't really playing-out well in the game--- it had been one of my very few critiques.

Thanks for taking me to school.


Note that this special retreat ability is printed right on the General Counters for Greene and Washington as a reminder.

Mark
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agentzen wrote:

Some tips:


Strong recommend that you take that superb post and begin a new thread in the Strategy sub forum.
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Doug Epperson
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SewerStarFish wrote:
Cavalry Man wrote:
I will employ your expertly described tactics against my friend Doug next match and make him taste the "bile" of defeat!


And THAT |^^^| is why we all play war games. Thumbs for you.


BILE...someone say BILE?!?!

Gentlemen, PREPARE YOURSELF!
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Doug Epperson
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agentzen wrote:
I didn't win my first couple of games as the Americans, but once you figure them out it's pretty evenly matched.

Some tips:

Once you figure out that "Armies with 1 CU do not suffer Winter Attrition" rule is an advantage - use it. The British will have giant, slow moving armies camped in forts and coastal cities, but they'll never be able to move as easily as you can. When you can move a nimble general with 1 CU into position to flip linchpin cities in say, 5 states, and the British will only be able to respond to 1 or 2 of them, you are gaining ground. Who cares if they smash Lafayette and his 1 CU Army? Bring him another 1 CU next year and move him somewhere to flip a red PC in the year-end Political Control phase.

Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you. And when you decide to battle them on your terms, the battle happens every time.

Don't ever (or very rarely) use a 1 OPS card to place 1 PC - if you reinforce you can place a General, 1 CU, and a free PC (at the end of the turn) in any empty space. When there are 6 of these, plus Washington and maybe Rochambeau, scattered about the map, the British won't know which way to turn, or which way the threat is coming from.


On my second attempt as the American player, I employed this exact game strategy as you mentioned here. My first game ended in utter defeat and the utter taste of BILE!

I learned quickly that the Americans can employ more generals with a 1 CU Army causing great grief for my counter part - the British General. I also employed a tactic to take every port in the south by this method. The British couldn't respond since he had no port to move into the southern states and when he did send an Army south, it took him 3x 3OP cards to march south and fight. By then we were prepared and defeated this army with no loss of power in the south. He never regained control of ANY southern port which left a HUGE TASTE OF BILE in his mouth! Muhaha

This was the only time we managed to squeak out a victory for the American. It was real close and if I didn't seal off the ports in the south, the British would have sent Washington running to Canada!

GREAT GAME!!!
Epp
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Mark Herman
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VonEpp wrote:
agentzen wrote:
I didn't win my first couple of games as the Americans, but once you figure them out it's pretty evenly matched.

Some tips:

Once you figure out that "Armies with 1 CU do not suffer Winter Attrition" rule is an advantage - use it. The British will have giant, slow moving armies camped in forts and coastal cities, but they'll never be able to move as easily as you can. When you can move a nimble general with 1 CU into position to flip linchpin cities in say, 5 states, and the British will only be able to respond to 1 or 2 of them, you are gaining ground. Who cares if they smash Lafayette and his 1 CU Army? Bring him another 1 CU next year and move him somewhere to flip a red PC in the year-end Political Control phase.

Keep Washington and Greene close by the British and snagging important spaces. They can both avoid battle on a 1-4. A 67% chance of making the Brits waste a 2-3 OPS card every time they want to initiate a key battle turns into a huge advantage for you. And when you decide to battle them on your terms, the battle happens every time.

Don't ever (or very rarely) use a 1 OPS card to place 1 PC - if you reinforce you can place a General, 1 CU, and a free PC (at the end of the turn) in any empty space. When there are 6 of these, plus Washington and maybe Rochambeau, scattered about the map, the British won't know which way to turn, or which way the threat is coming from.


On my second attempt as the American player, I employed this exact game strategy as you mentioned here. My first game ended in utter defeat and the utter taste of BILE!

I learned quickly that the Americans can employ more generals with a 1 CU Army causing great grief for my counter part - the British General. I also employed a tactic to take every port in the south by this method. The British couldn't respond since he had no port to move into the southern states and when he did send an Army south, it took him 3x 3OP cards to march south and fight. By then we were prepared and defeated this army with no loss of power in the south. He never regained control of ANY southern port which left a HUGE TASTE OF BILE in his mouth! Muhaha

This was the only time we managed to squeak out a victory for the American. It was real close and if I didn't seal off the ports in the south, the British would have sent Washington running to Canada!

GREAT GAME!!!
Epp


One of the big differences between WTP and WWR is that in WTP the Americans almost never got Lincoln or Lee into the game. I find that one of the American advantages in WWR is the huge value of the 1 CU army. The British only have 5 generals, the Americans have 7 plus Rochambeau. What will become clear over time is that Lee and Lincoln are useful as guerrilla armies moving where the British regulars are not. This 8 v 5 maneuver advantage is just another one of the American asymmetric advantages in the game. As more play occurs I believe players will start to see the value of this operational advantage.

Mark
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Doug Epperson
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Mark,

This is a FANTASTIC Game!

THANKS

 
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Steffan O'Sullivan
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MarkHerman wrote:
One of the big differences between WTP and WWR ...

Okay, I have to ask: what's the "R" in WWR?
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Bartow Riggs
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sos1 wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
One of the big differences between WTP and WWR ...

Okay, I have to ask: what's the "R" in WWR?


I still prefer "WaWa" but aparently GMT has decreed WWR to be official.
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Mark Herman
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sos1 wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
One of the big differences between WTP and WWR ...

Okay, I have to ask: what's the "R" in WWR?


Not sure how something likes this gets 'official', but the guys over on CSW decided it was WWR, which is...

Washington's WaR=WWR

The problem with WaW is that is the three letter designation that has found common useage for Decision Games World at War magazine. WaWa has too many letters I guess and sounds kind of silly, so I am glad it did not find common usage.

Mark
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Joel Toppen
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WWR = Washington's WaR.

Needed to differentiate from Wilderness War (WW). WaWa just sounded too goofy.

-Joel
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joel_m_toppen wrote:
WWR = Washington's WaR.

Needed to differentiate from Wilderness War (WW). WaWa just sounded to goofy.

-Joel


devil Yeah...WaWa...a sound only a kid [infant] should make.


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joel_m_toppen wrote:
WWR = Washington's WaR.
-
Ah, I see. Totally unlike Wilderness WaR.
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Quote:
Note that this special retreat ability is printed right on the General Counters for Greene and Washington as a reminder.

Mark


snap!
 
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agentzen wrote:
I didn't win my first couple of games as the Americans, but once you figure them out it's pretty evenly matched.

Some tips:



THANKS!!!!

I have played 4 games solitaire and the Brits won them all. I figured I was either a brilliant British player (doubtful) or a really bad American player (bingo!)

I'm playing a really good player this week in my first head-to-head. He and I have played WtP a couple of times and I think he's a brilliant tactician. I asked him to play the Americans so I could see what I'm doing wrong. I have a feeling he's going to do this.

I have found that if the Brits get the Continental Line Mutiny card and a campaign card in 2 of the first 3 hands, they are a juggernaut, because they can take Philly (Flip Wilmington and land in it), proceed on first play of next turn, and by the time the Americans can react, they have PCs all over the board. I'm not sure if the guerilla strategy would work against it, but that's a pretty rare occurrance.
 
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Warren Bruhn
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I think what Mark was saying is that those several 1 ops rebel leaders need to be scattered accross the back country, where they threaten to flip British PCs at years end, while also serving as a center for control. If they get caught and captured, so what? They'll be returned from prisoner exchange anyway. It's probably better to lose single CUs under mediocre but cheap leaders than to lose them to winter attrition because they were stacked. And the British won't have enough leaders and armies and ops value in an average hand of cards to actually go after more than a couple of those rebel 1 ops leaders in any given year.

The British have the problem of not being able to hold things with small garrisons, and of not being able to scatter leaders or leave CU without leaders to flip PC at years end. If there are a lot of small rebel armies scattered about, then they will attack small British forces often enough to get the victories needed to bring in the French. And the drain of the finite supply of British CU might eventually be fatal. In my first and only game, the rebel player didn't use all his leaders, and kept trying to win with just Washington, Lafayette, and Greene doing all the work, and that didn't win it for him.

Definately will take more finesse to win as the rebels.
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