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Subject: Retreating with flyers rss

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David desJardins
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Suppose I have a mixed force of flying and nonflying units. Now it is time for me to retreat.

1. Suppose the only eligible adjacent space is only reachable by flyers. Can I retreat my flyers? Presumably the non-flyers are dead.

2. Suppose there is an eligible adjacent space reachable by all units, and another eligible adjacent space only reachable by flyers. Can I choose to retreat to the latter space, losing the non-flyers? Or do I have to retreat to the former space, because it's the only one that all units can reach?

3. Suppose there is an adjacent friendly space only reachable by flyers, and an adjacent empty space reachable by all units. Which priority takes precedence, do I have to retreat to the friendly space (and kill the non-flyers), or do I have to retreat to the empty space that all units can reach? Or do I get a choice??
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Scott Lewis
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Suppose I have a mixed force of flying and nonflying units. Now it is time for me to retreat.

1. Suppose the only eligible adjacent space is only reachable by flyers. Can I retreat my flyers? Presumably the non-flyers are dead.

That's a good question. However, as all units must retreat to the same area, and there is no provision for only retreating SOME units, I would probably say if there is an area that your non-flying units COULD go to, that must be your choice.


Quote:
2. Suppose there is an eligible adjacent space reachable by all units, and another eligible adjacent space only reachable by flyers. Can I choose to retreat to the latter space, losing the non-flyers? Or do I have to retreat to the former space, because it's the only one that all units can reach?

Personally, I would say you must go to the one that only the non-fliers can also go to.

Quote:
3. Suppose there is an adjacent friendly space only reachable by flyers, and an adjacent empty space reachable by all units. Which priority takes precedence, do I have to retreat to the friendly space (and kill the non-flyers), or do I have to retreat to the empty space that all units can reach? Or do I get a choice??

This makes the question a lot hairier. The rules do indicate you must retreat to a friendly area if there is one possible. But if only SOME of the units can get there, that leads to an interesting dilemma.

I think for me, I would lean towards that the friendly area is only considered "available" if ALL retreating units could go there; thus, in this case, I'd probably say that the empty area must be your choice. The only time you could retreat across mountains (or unfrozen water) is if all units could legally move there.


In short, the way I interpret the rules, you must retreat as much as possible, you can't voluntarily leave units behind. The rules have provisions for moving into areas that can't fit all of the retreating units (and Corey has confirmed that such does not make the area "unavailable"), so just because an area is full doesn't block that area, but if there IS a place your units CAN all retreat to, that seems to me to be the place you must go.
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David Jackman
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Suppose I have a mixed force of flying and nonflying units. Now it is time for me to retreat.

1. Suppose the only eligible adjacent space is only reachable by flyers. Can I retreat my flyers? Presumably the non-flyers are dead.

2. Suppose there is an eligible adjacent space reachable by all units, and another eligible adjacent space only reachable by flyers. Can I choose to retreat to the latter space, losing the non-flyers? Or do I have to retreat to the former space, because it's the only one that all units can reach?

3. Suppose there is an adjacent friendly space only reachable by flyers, and an adjacent empty space reachable by all units. Which priority takes precedence, do I have to retreat to the friendly space (and kill the non-flyers), or do I have to retreat to the empty space that all units can reach? Or do I get a choice??


"Guys, we have to run! we are all toast!" - Archer

"This way! i promise it is safe!" - Pegasus Rider

"Arent those mountains?" - Archer

"...No, dont be silly. Its safe as any direction!" - Pegasus Rider

And so began the eternal mistrust of elves that ride Pegasus.
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Aaron Riggan
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Sounds like a "Corey" question to me.
 
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mateo jurasic
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i say you shouldnt be punished just because you have a pegasus rider.
of course, I didnt like the ruling that you have to retreat to a full area and lose all of your guys instead of the nice empty uncontrolled hex right over there.
 
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Scott Lewis
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For what it's worth, I've posed these three scenarios to Corey.
 
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Here are the responses I got back from Corey. Not particularly what I would have guessed myself, but at the same time I can see how they could probably be justified, as they are kind of hairy situations.

Here's my question:
A couple related questions for the same situation:

SITUATION:
An army has both flying and non-flying units. After a battle, this army is forced to retreat. The map is set up like this:

B|A^C

(the battle is in Area A; Area B is adjacent with no mountain border; Area C is adjacent with a mountain border. No other areas border A).

All references to "friendly" in these questions refer to "friendly to the retreating army"


1) Area B and Area C both have friendly units, or are both empty. Must the army retreat to B, or can he choose to retreat only the Flying units to C, and kill off the non-flyers?

2) Area B has enemy units; Area C is either empty or has Friendly units. Can the flyers retreat to C, and leave the rest behind to die, or must the whole army die because it can't ret reat together?

3) (this one is a little trickier) Area B is empty, Area C has friendly units. How would retreating work here:
3a) Because C has friendly units, must the flyers retreat there and leave behind the non-flyers to their doom?
3b) Because the whole army cannot retreat to C, must the entire army retreat to B?
IE, in this one, which rule trumps - the "must retreat to friendly area, if possible" (even if the whole army can't), or the "whole army must retreat together" rule?


Corey's response:
1) You could choose to retreat to "C", but each non-flying unit would die (unless you had a mountain pass or similar ability).
2) Yes, the flyers could retreat to C (same as #1).
3) Since all units cannot retreat to area "C", the player can choose to retreat to "B" or "C". Once again, if you choose "C", non-flyers that cannot retreat would die.
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David desJardins
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As usual, Corey gives the ruling that makes the most logical sense for playing the game, without being overly picky about the specific language of the rules. If you have a mostly flying force with one weenie on foot, you shouldn't be screwed by being forced to retreat where the weenie can go. Conversely, if you've only got one flyer, you shouldn't be forced to retreat to the space where you lose all the rest of your army. How to justify this in the language of the rules is not clear, but at least the result makes sense.
 
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Yup, while it's probably not what I would have ruled, I don't think it necessarily throws the rules out the window.

I typically prefer rulings based solely on "the rules" rather than "makes sense" just because they can be backed up, but I agree there are times when sometimes taking the rules too far can just be a bigger headache. In this case, the rules just weren't as clear as they could be for the situation, so my guess was just based on the way I read the rules.
 
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David desJardins
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sigmazero13 wrote:
I typically prefer rulings based solely on "the rules" rather than "makes sense" just because they can be backed up


That can be a good approach when the rules are written with great care in the first place and you can avoid unintended consequences by just following them literally.

I think it's a bad approach when the rules are written in a relatively casual and imprecise way and attempting to divine meaning from the specific words that happen to be chosen is just going to get you a random result that may be quite far from the designer's intent.
 
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Well, I disagree there. If the rules are the best you have, it's better to go by what they say than to make random guesses as to what you THINK they may mean. But if the rules are really unclear, then you may just have to come to a group consensus.

Fortunately, Corey has been pretty accessible in giving rulings. And in most cases, his rulings have been pretty predictable based on what the rulebook actually says (and the specific terms used therein), and in the few cases where they weren't, it's usually because the rulebook was unclear for that situation, and the ruling is usually based on one of the possible interpretations.


For Runewars, I don't think the rulebook is really all that casual or imprecise. Not perfect by any means, and not the law codex that some old-school Avalon Hill games were (for good or ill), but I think that in general, the terms used in the Runewars rulebook are consistently used. Maybe a few exceptions here and there. But compared to FFG's past games, the Runewars book is pretty well written.

I guess it just depends on how you look at it. A poorly written rulebook is either going to be "attempting to divine meaning from the specific words" of the rulebook in some fashion, or just outright ignoring the rules and playing by perceived intent, which may or may not have any more basis in what was TRULY intended than what the rulebook actually says. (Heck, this can even be true with a relatively well-written rulebook, too).
 
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David desJardins
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sigmazero13 wrote:
Well, I disagree there. If the rules are the best you have, it's better to go by what they say than to make random guesses as to what you THINK they may mean.


Why do you keep insulting me and putting words in my mouth? When did I suggest anyone should make random guesses? You are attacking a strawman and it's quite annoying. It's like you want to turn every thread into a flame war.
 
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Scott Lewis
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DaviddesJ wrote:
sigmazero13 wrote:
Well, I disagree there. If the rules are the best you have, it's better to go by what they say than to make random guesses as to what you THINK they may mean.


Why do you keep insulting me and putting words in my mouth? When did I suggest anyone should make random guesses? You are attacking a strawman and it's quite annoying. It's like you want to turn every thread into a flame war.

First of all, I have not insulted you. Simply disagreeing with you is not an insult, unless you feel that you are beyond being wrong (which I doubt is the case). I've not attacked your character, your person, or who you are - I've merely pointed out something I disagree with in your WORDS, and explained why I disagree.

As for putting words in your mouth, I've done nothing of the sort here, either. The "random guesses" I refer to is in reference to this:
Quote:
attempting to divine meaning

Which really is nothing more than a random (even if based on personal interpretation) guess if you don't know the designers mind. You can make any logical inference you want, but if you don't "know" what the designer was thinking, even a logical conclusion is no better than a random guess.

My point is, I have stated that I think that in the absense of a ruling from the designer/publisher/whatever, the rulebook SHOULD be taken at face value, poorly written or not. In some cases, there may be multiple valid rulings if the wording is indeed poor, but in such cases, trying to determine which one is right is nothing more than just a guess based on personal interpretation - and I don't think that's all that far off from a "random guess".

I'm sorry you've taken offense to my disagreement of your posts, but my issue is not with you at all, just your conclusions and/or reasoning.
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David desJardins
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sigmazero13 wrote:
As for putting words in your mouth, I've done nothing of the sort here, either. The "random guesses" I refer to is in reference to this:
Quote:
attempting to divine meaning

Which really is nothing more than a random (even if based on personal interpretation) guess if you don't know the designers mind.


Let me get this straight. Now you're taking my example of something I said not to do ("attempting to divine meaning") as an indication of my intention to make "random guesses"?

I never suggested making any "random guesses". It's a derogatory term which does nothing but fan the flames. I don't know why every time you reply to me you mock or caricature what I have to say, but I wish you would stop.
 
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Scott Lewis
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Frankly, I'm not sure how to respond further without you feeling like I'm insulting you. I've already stated what I meant, and meant what I stated, and if you don't understand what my point was, I'm not sure how much clearer I can make it. To be honest, it seems like you are now deliberately twisting MY words, in an attempt to find a reason to be insulted.

I'm sorry if you feel like I'm attacking you, because really I'm not. If that's the way you feel, though, there's nothing I can do about it. In the other thread, my comments were poking fun at MYSELF (for relying on Corey's rulings so much) as anything, yet you still felt I was meaning it as a bash or swipe at you. I'm not sure what you want me to do, exactly.

Had I really not wanted to help out here, I wouldn't have bothered asking Corey this question for clarification, nor would I have posted the response. While the ruling isn't what I had expected, I don't think it's a bad ruling, either, even if my interpretation of what the rules say would not have come to this conclusion.
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