Recommend
18 
 Thumb up
 Hide
62 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Wargames» Forums » General

Subject: The meaning of grognards? What makes a grognard game. rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: grognard [+] groyn_yahr [+] [View All]
David Cameron
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
I'm wondering how and when this phrase came into being. Grognards means grumblers in Français. Does this have any bearing on what is means?

Also when does a war-game become a "real grognard's game"? What constitutes this?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jay white
Canada
Bowen Island
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'll tell ya one thing, there better be a CRT for it to be a grognard game.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
pɹɐɥɔᴉɹ
England
Reading
Berkshire
flag msg tools
Careful. There is a minefield around here.
badge
BANG!! Don't step on the mines!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Alan Emrich wrote about wargamers use of the word Grognard
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
There's not an exact definition of 'grognard's game', however, it would tend to be in reference to 'old style' wargames - CRT, hexes, cardboard counters, IGO-UGO, move-combat (perhaps a mech movement phase after combat) etc. Helps if it's out-of-print as well, that way the grognard can 'grumble' about the price.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Game designer (SPI) John Young first coined the term Grognard as applied to wargamers. It originally (I believe) was only for us guys who started playing hex and counter games before 1970. I first heard the term in the early to mid 70's.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Haeberling
Switzerland
CH-8570 Weinfelden
TG
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
I'm wondering how and when this phrase came into being.


The name Grognards came into being at the Napoleonic times and specifically for the members of the French Old Guard. The Old Guard was always present during the great battles but very often were not committed by the Emperor to the fight. Consequently they grumbled for not serving the Emperor in the only way they understood: fighting. This grumbling was not that one of near mutiny but rather lovingly against the Emperor.
So my definition of a modern grumbler is the one who can't fight enough board wargames.
29 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
flag msg tools
designer
ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ/ πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν./...
badge
μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος/ οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾽ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾽ ἔθηκε,/...
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1PrimeMinister wrote:
I'm wondering how and when this phrase came into being. Grognards means grumblers in Français. Does this have any bearing on what is means?

Also when does a war-game become a "real grognard's game"? What constitutes this?

"Grognards" were Napoleon's troops, especially the tried and true veterans.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Beaton
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
flag msg tools
badge
I have a cunning plan
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
billyboy wrote:
Game designer (SPI) John Young first coined the term Grognard as applied to wargamers. It originally (I believe) was only for us guys who started playing hex and counter games before 1970. I first heard the term in the early to mid 70's.


I would like to think, 40 years on, that the definition can be stretched to 1973, so that I can wear my microbadge without embarrassment.
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Oh my God They Banned Kenny
Canada
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
aiabx wrote:

I would like to think, 40 years on, that the definition can be stretched to 1973, so that I can wear my microbadge without embarrassment.


That would be 'Middle Guard' I believe. Still the 'Middle Guard' was 'rolled into' the 'Old Guard' before the end, so close enough I suppose.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
deadkenny wrote:
aiabx wrote:

I would like to think, 40 years on, that the definition can be stretched to 1973, so that I can wear my microbadge without embarrassment.


That would be 'Middle Guard' I believe. Still the 'Middle Guard' was 'rolled into' the 'Old Guard' before the end, so close enough I suppose.







I fully agree with both of you. I was inducted in my teens!
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Coquitlam
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The term "grognard" came to be used in wargaming to identify wagamers who are overly obsessed with accuracy.

So a "grognard game"(if there is such a thing) might be one with an excessive amount of chrome; at least enough to keep a grognard from grumbling too much.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Lavoie
United States
Nashua
New Hampshire
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
billyboy wrote:
deadkenny wrote:
aiabx wrote:

I would like to think, 40 years on, that the definition can be stretched to 1973, so that I can wear my microbadge without embarrassment.


That would be 'Middle Guard' I believe. Still the 'Middle Guard' was 'rolled into' the 'Old Guard' before the end, so close enough I suppose.







I fully agree with both of you. I was inducted in my teens!


That makes me a member of the Young Guard, I guess! whistle
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Cameron
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
Hungadunga wrote:
The term "grognard" came to be used in wargaming to identify wagamers who are overly obsessed with accuracy.

So a "grognard game"(if there is such a thing) might be one with an excessive amount of chrome; at least enough to keep a grognard from grumbling too much.


So I guess Pursuit of Glory or Triumph of Chaos is a grognard's game?

and I thought only Victory in the Pacific or Case Blue were grognard games. laugh
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tom
United States
Plainfield
ILLINOIS
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I suspect like many terms the term grognard is being over used by some and the original meaning is being slowly watered down as people try to apply the word to other things. I have heard people call games like Twilight Struggle a grognard game because of the so called complex rules but I strongly disagree with this labeling of TS.

To give you example, I remember when a local TV concert promoter in 1997 called Ozzy an "industrial" act. Heck there are still people who call NIN industrial when in fact the original term for the music was the record label "industrial records", the label Throbbing Gristle was on. They were an "industrial band" much like Led Zeppelin was an "Atlantic Records" band.

Now the term industrial is used with little reference to the original concepts of throbbing gristle, or bands that sounded like Throbbing Gristle. My source for this information, my interview with Blixa from Einsturzende Neubauten (often perceived as one of the original Industrial bands, a moniker Blixa hates), history, and several interviews with Throbbing Gristle.

In other words, I am not sure how many people care where the words they use in everyday conversation came from when they use a word. I do care but I am often accused of being a syntactics and linguistics snob
8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Patrick Hickey
msg tools
mbmbmb
The word "grognard" is evolving a bit because its no longer used exclusively by wargamers. In pen and paper tabletop roleplaying games, a "grognard" is anyone who whines and moans about "kids these days." Basically, if your view of the faults of the youthful and the new is razor sharp, but your view of the "good old days" is chock-full of myth and confabulation, you're a grognard.

Its not considered a particularly complimentary term, though there are some who wear it as a badge of pride.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andy Holt
England
Rayleigh
Essex
flag msg tools
This is not the cat you're looking for - some other cat maybe?
badge
tout passe, tout lasse, tout casse
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ah, nostalgia isn't what it used to be ...






but I remember when it was.
16 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Coquitlam
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Webnard wrote:
Cadfan wrote:
Its not considered a particularly complimentary term, though there are some who wear it as a badge of pride.
I'm not sure how the term 'grognard' is not particularly complimentary when there are those who wear it as "a badge of pride." Certainly to them it must be.

That's because they don't know what they're talking about.

"Hey, let's call ourselves something unsavory!"

"How about PIRATES!?"

"Naah."

"How about GROGNARDS!?"

"Cool! Not even girls will understand that one!"
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christoph Haeberling
Switzerland
CH-8570 Weinfelden
TG
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Napoleon himself considered it a complimentary when he called his Old Guard affectionately as Grognards.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mark D
United States
Lansdale
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
1PrimeMinister wrote:

Also when does a war-game become a "real grognard's game"? What constitutes this?


When the game includes lots of size changing fonts and all the colors of the rainbow in the text.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ben Delp
United States
Franklin
Tennessee
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm only 37, but I've been playing wargames since I was about 10. And my collection began and includes some old AH titles (and I'd like to get more). I think of myself as a grognard, but in the event that my dossier doesn't qualify on its merits, I'd like to hereby apply for honorary grognard status with the Board.

I think it's a compliment, by the way
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
delp1871 wrote:
I'm only 37, but I've been playing wargames since I was about 10. And my collection began and includes some old AH titles (and I'd like to get more). I think of myself as a grognard, but in the event that my dossier doesn't qualify on its merits, I'd like to hereby apply for honorary grognard status with the Board.

I think it's a compliment, by the way


Its most certainly a compliment!! thumbsup

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/437118/grognards-sound-o...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Coquitlam
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
billyboy wrote:
delp1871 wrote:
I think it's a compliment, by the way


Its most certainly a compliment!!


It isn't really.

I mean, do you want to play a wargame against someone who's always grumbling about what HE considers to be errors in factors on counters? Or someone who constantly complains about how the designer of the very game you're playing doesn't understand how artillery in that era works? Because THAT'S a grognard.

Sure, it's cute for a while, but it gets old pretty quickly.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hungadunga wrote:
billyboy wrote:
delp1871 wrote:
I think it's a compliment, by the way


Its most certainly a compliment!!


It isn't really.

I mean, do you want to play a wargame against someone who's always grumbling about what HE considers to be errors in factors on counters? Or someone who constantly complains about how the designer of the very game you're playing doesn't understand how artillery in that era works? Because THAT'S a grognard.





I think of it as John Young who coined the phrase ( as it applies to Wargamers) in reference to Wargamers who were in it from the beginning. Its since come to mean (to me anyways) a hardcore Wargamer. All the other stuff is just bullshit ( hopefully for fun). shake

So to each his own, if some of you want to use it as a derogatory term , have at it. I'm proud to be called a Grognard!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Hunga Dunga
Canada
Coquitlam
British Columbia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
billyboy wrote:
So to each his own, if some of you want to use it as a derogatory term , have at it. I'm proud to be called a Grognard!

That's cool.

I'll just continue to believe that you don't understand what the word means.


2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bill Lawson
United States
Rutland
Vermont
flag msg tools
Boston Redsox
badge
New England Patriots!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hungadunga wrote:
billyboy wrote:
So to each his own, if some of you want to use it as a derogatory term , have at it. I'm proud to be called a Grognard!

That's cool.

I'll just continue to believe that you don't understand what the word means.




Ditto! Exactly what I was thinking about you!
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.