Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Agricola» Forums » Rules

Subject: Stablehand + Fence Overseer rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Mike T
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
It's clear that they work well together, and the Compendium sorts out most of their interaction. One thing isn't completely clear to me though:

When I have both cards in play, may I take the Build Fences action, build 1 fence for 1 wood, receive my free stable from the Stablehand, then pay the Overseer to completely the fence around the stable?

Based upon the concept that you only check for legality after the completion of fence-building, this should be legal, though inefficient, right?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Grand Prince Poutine Lord High Thrifter
Canada
Metro Vancouver
flag msg tools
badge
Please support the International Diplomacy Repository -- where your donations of Diplomacy games are always happily accepted!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
In my opinion, yes, you are correct. I don't see any rules (or Agri-legal precedent) to prevent this and, furthermore, it seems fully in the spirit of the game to do this. Clever idea too.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmmmm.... interesting question Mike.

I just checked the most recent version of the compendium and found this official ruling under Stablehand:

"Activates the Fence Overseer when used: when you build a fence, you must build 1 free stable, which can be fenced for free (by paying 1 food). You may not use the Stablehand again to receive a second free stable."

I added the italics for clarification, but it seems to me like you can indeed do what you're saying you can do. A very sneaky action, to be sure.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think this works:

Under the Fence Overseer, yhe compendium (version 6, so my bad if this has changed in v.7) says:
Is activated when you use the Stablehand E207:
when you build a fence, you must build 1 free
stable, which can be fenced for free. You may
not use the Stablehand again to receive a second
free stable. The fences built in the original
action (before using Stablehand and Fence
Overseer) must follow the rules for fence building:
complete pastures only.


So, if you can legally build and place 1 fence (like subdividing something) then sure. In that case you would get to place a stable and then fence it.

But this seems to say that you cannot build one freestanding fence, then plop a stable next to it, and then add 3 more fences to make the original fence action legal. (Thus building a stable and 4 fences for a wood and a food). The original fence action (the building one fence) must in and of itself be a legal action.

Otherwise what does that last sentence mean? Building one freestanding fence does not "follow the rules for fence building".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Though I have to admit this rule seems inconsistent with how the hedge keeper works, wherein you're allowed to build one otherwise illegal fence and use the 3 free from the hedge keeper to complete the pasture.

Personally I think Mike's idea should work - it just seems contrary to what the compendium says...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike T
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that last line is included in v. 7.

Edit: I'm wrong. It's there.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Leidschendam
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
smcmike wrote:
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that last line is included in v. 7.

I don't have v. 7 in front of me, but I do have v. 8, and that last line is there. It is unofficial, though. The rest of that ruling is official.

My logic here is that two fence buildings immediately one after another count as 1 action (e.g. hedge keeper after a normal fence building), but if another action intervenes, it's two actions. In this case, the building of a stable breaks the fence building action in two.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
pijll wrote:
smcmike wrote:
I don't have it in front of me, but I don't think that last line is included in v. 7.

I don't have v. 7 in front of me, but I do have v. 8, and that last line is there. It is unofficial, though. The rest of that ruling is official.

My logic here is that two fence buildings immediately one after another count as 1 action (e.g. hedge keeper after a normal fence building), but if another action intervenes, it's two actions. In this case, the building of a stable breaks the fence building action in two.


If that's the reasoning, then I'd advocate for changing one of these two rulings. I do understand your logic - that you're kind of breaking the fence building into two parts - and it is sound. However, it's also a much more confusing rule.

To say that a fence building action has to be legal before taking any cards into account, would be a simple rule. Alternatively to say that a fence building action only has to be legal by the end of the turn, after accounting for all cards is also a simple rule.

But to say that you get to account for some cards and not others in determining if the "pay for only one fence" thing is legal, seems like a much harder rule to teach, and makes it more likely that someone later on is going to think up more combinations that need to be ruled on.

Just my $0.02.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike T
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
pijll wrote:

I don't have v. 7 in front of me, but I do have v. 8, and that last line is there. It is unofficial, though. The rest of that ruling is official.

My logic here is that two fence buildings immediately one after another count as 1 action (e.g. hedge keeper after a normal fence building), but if another action intervenes, it's two actions. In this case, the building of a stable breaks the fence building action in two.


OK, but I've seen a ruling that the Hedge Keeper and Fence Overseer interact in such a way that you may build your stable on a space non-adjacent to your current fences, fence it, and use the extra HK fences to connect and legalize the move. That doesn't seem consistent with disallowing the Stablehand/Fence Overseer interaction.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene van der Pijll
Netherlands
Leidschendam
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
TwitchBot wrote:
If that's the reasoning, then I'd advocate for changing one of these two rulings.

I may well change the ruling on the Stablehand, because it causes problems with the Hedge Keeper: if the fence building of the Fence Overseer is a separate action, you would be able to use the Hedge Keeper for both actions. Intuitively, that doesn't seem right.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike T
United States
Maryland
flag msg tools
Avatar
This really is the mirror image of the HK/Overseer combo I mentioned above. The more useful way to abuse this would be to build 3 fences originally, then add a fully fenced stable to create 2 adjacent 1x1s. With a second build, you could add another 3 fences, mostly enclosing a 2x1, then stable and fence 4 to finish it off. 6w, 2f, 2 fencing actions = 3 1x1 pastures, 1 2x1 pasture, and 2 fenced stables. In comparison, of course, the HK/Overseer combo gets you exactly the same result for 4w, 2f and 2 stables actions.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bryann Turner
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For the record, I think this "two separate action" thing is a too convoluted and above the head of the average player.

When I place my peep on fence, I can and should get all available benefits during that placement in one contiguous action. If I have Stablehand and Fence Overseer, this means that I can get all their benefits during my fencing action, and if when I'm done fencing/stabling/fencing again my pasture is a complete, enclosed pasture, that's all that should it matter.

If I have Farmer, or Animal Breeder, or Hedge Keeper, or any other fencing related occupation or minor improvement, it should all trigger at the same time provided that when I'm done moving fences around on my board, they form a complete pasture. That's all that matters in the fencing action, the end product of the action.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matt Shields
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
pijll wrote:
TwitchBot wrote:
If that's the reasoning, then I'd advocate for changing one of these two rulings.

I may well change the ruling on the Stablehand, because it causes problems with the Hedge Keeper: if the fence building of the Fence Overseer is a separate action, you would be able to use the Hedge Keeper for both actions. Intuitively, that doesn't seem right.


Yeah, I agree with you there. (And with Bryann) It doesn't seem like there should be a circumstance where I get to use the hedge keeper twice on the same turn. (Or same worker placement action I guess - If I got 4 fences before my turn from the Fence Deliveryman, and then my action was to go to fences, that should be treated as two separate fence-building-events.)

Probably the simplest thing to do is to just say that all of the fences I build during my turn are considered as one fence-building-event, regardless of how they are paid for, or where they come from. So Hedge Keeper is triggered once, Farmer is triggered once, Stablehand is triggered once, Animal Breeder is triggered once, etc.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lord Chambers
msg tools
Bumping so Hanno can take a look.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.