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One of the well known situations with NC and this expansion is that humans aren't too concerned with losing civvies (ships). They're less ships they have to move when they get to New Caprica anyways, which I wholeheartily agree with. What have you folks been noticing is the ideal # of civvy ships to have going into NC?



However, it's not that black and white. You don't want to end up starting NC say... with only 3 civves left (or do you)? It'll likely be easier for cylons to take out those 3 civvy ships then, and unless the humans spam Breeders Canyon (BC), there's a chance the humans can't jump away soon enough even if they are prepared. On the other hand, the full 12 civvy ships is not ideal either. You do have some civvies to spare before reaching dangerously low pop levels, but chances are, both fleets will be back by the time you can get alot of them prepared. Now you have to worry about a double pronged attack from the Occupation Forces (OF) down below and the cylon fleet high above. Any civvies destroyed in space is hurtful. Ships destroyed by OFs isn't instant death, but now that means you have less margin of error to work with.

Having somewhere in between, say.... 6? 7? means you're more likely to have all of whatever civvies are left ready to evac. And the halfway point is that you won't need as many actions to evac all of them either.


Poll: The issue about civilian ships and New Caprica.....
Original context for these poll(s) are here....

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/508082/sweet-spot-for-civili...

If it turns out there are expansions for Battlestar Galactica after the Pegasus expansion, then this poll only addresses issues based on the base game + expansion
1. What would you say are the ideal range of civvy ships to have going into New Caprica? (see original thread for parameters/assumptions)
0
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
2. Do you feel mechanism of New Caprica, saving civvy ships, and winning the game works? (scale of 1 through 5 below)
1 - It's just fine and balanced.
2 -
3 - Middle road, half 'n half. It's not completely lopsided, but could use some minor tweaks
4
5 - It's straight-up broken.
3. Do you omit the New Caprica module strictly or mostly because of the whole "situation" with it?
Yes, I play withOUT New Caprica because of those issues.
No, I play WITH New Caprica despite those issues
      25 answers
Poll created by ackmondual



This question below concerns that cylons should be doing stuff BEFORE New Caprica, NOT waiting until NC and the 11th hour to start doing damage.
Poll: The issue about civilian ships and New Caprica..... part 2
Sorry for the "double poll". This poll is a part 2 of poll #=41165

Original context thread here....
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/508082/sweet-spot-for-civili...
Do you feel that Cylons are responsible for making New Caprica work for them?
1 - Nope. NC is that bad, Cylons wouldn't stand a chance anyways
2 - If things were really in their favor, NC probably wouldn't spell doom for them
3 - Stereotypical middle ground. It's half and half with this choice.
4 - Fully, but, barring perpetual bad luck and/or no cylons till post sleeper-phase, cylons can win NC if they put their AIs to it.
5 - Fully. Period.
      17 answers
Poll created by ackmondual



*** Assume that however many ships you have left is also the # of population you have left. There are clear cases where you can get pop back, but those are rare. There are more likely cases where you lose population outside of destroyed civvies, but if that did happen, then that's no longer the scenario described in this thread nor elsewhere. Well, the former case would also be invalidated b/c of this. And last but not least, for simplicy's sake (feel free to expand on this though), assume the 0 and double pop ships are either still left, or have been destroyed in tandem to balance each other out.
 
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Roberta Yang
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Re: 'Sweet spot' for civilian ships left on New Caprica?
Unless it's absurdly low (like on the order of 3), the number of remaining civilian ships doesn't really matter at all, since it doesn't affect how many you need to save, and you're almost certainly not going to be saving everyone.

What matters is how the amount of population in the remaining civilian ships compares to your remaining population; if you have more population than the civilian ships combined do (such as from Rescue Caprica Survivors, or from using Preventative Policy on population the turn a civilian ship was destroyed), then you can just rescue nobody, but if your civilian ships have at least as much population as your population stat, then to guarantee victory you need to rescue a number of civilian ships equal to the difference, plus one to ensure that one population unit is saved, plus one more for each blank civilian ship that has not yet been destroyed. (The double-pop ships aren't that important, since if you're assuming a worst-case scenario then you're not counting on rescuing them anyhow; they only become relevant if your population is so abysmally low that you need to rescue pretty much everyone.)
 
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Carl Bussema
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You really want two things:
Very few ships, maybe 3-5, and you want a lot of excess food if possible, so you can spam BC. Morale is dangerous b/c of the # of NC crises that target it. Then it's just move -> shipyard, prep. move -> breeder's, XO: guy on shipyard. move -> shipyard: XO: shipyard other, cylons play 2 crises, maybe somebody's in detention (seems to happen every time we play NC) so the next play is no move, XO breeders, and you should be about ready for galactica to be back, so maybe XO admiral for nukes if you think you're going to need them, but ideally an XO shipyard or 2 and a crisis with an evac icon and you're ready to jump before the raiders even got close.
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I would also say that I object to the last question for the implication that the Cylons have some way of making New Caprica work for them. The Shipyard action is awful and the Occupation Authority action is awful unless there are virtually no civilian ships left, which means the Cylons' only real option is to spam Breeder's Canyon and perhaps detain Boomer if they get a chance. The Cylons just don't have any options; there's nothing they can do to change the state of the game.
 
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salty53 wrote:
I would also say that I object to the last question for the implication that the Cylons have some way of making New Caprica work for them. The Shipyard action is awful and the Occupation Authority action is awful unless there are virtually no civilian ships left, which means the Cylons' only real option is to spam Breeder's Canyon and perhaps detain Boomer if they get a chance. The Cylons just don't have any options; there's nothing they can do to change the state of the game.
Ugh, as always, that's another thing I need to fix. I should've made it clear that cylons should be doing stuff BEFORE New Caprica. Waiting until NC is the 11th hour in so many regards.
 
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ackmondual wrote:
Ugh, as always, that's another thing I need to fix. I should've made it clear that cylons should be doing stuff BEFORE New Caprica. Waiting until NC is the 11th hour in so many regards.


Well, in that case, what you're saying is for Cylons to care almost exclusively about Morale and non-civilian Population, which are also the only two things the humans should care about. Obviously, that's the best strategy with New Caprica around, but the existence of such a narrow optimal strategy indicates the presence of a larger problem, not a smaller one.
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salty53 wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
Ugh, as always, that's another thing I need to fix. I should've made it clear that cylons should be doing stuff BEFORE New Caprica. Waiting until NC is the 11th hour in so many regards.


Well, in that case, what you're saying is for Cylons to care almost exclusively about Morale and non-civilian Population, which are also the only two things the humans should care about. Obviously, that's the best strategy with New Caprica around, but the existence of such a narrow optimal strategy indicates the presence of a larger problem, not a smaller one.


Not quite. I've seen games end with Food and Fuel going down to 0, in many combinations of way before NC, during NC, and when the fleet jumps back to NC. Winning with centurions is uncommon, but still happens.
 
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Carl Bussema
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There are only 2 fuel crises in the entire NC deck. So unless one or more of the following is true, fuel is a non-issue. For each other other than the first that is true, you just need one extra fuel, and getting to NC with 2-3 fuel left is not hard at all.

* Fuel is at 1 at the start of NC
* One or more cylons are holding SC (that target fuel)
* The Fuel damage token for Galactica is still in the game (and the admiral doesn't have any nukes, and Pegasus is destroyed or you use Razor Cut rules to fire on both ships).
* The civilian ship with fuel is undestroyed.

Winning with centurions after NC basically means you should have won with centurions before NC but ran out of turns.
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ackmondual wrote:
Not quite. I've seen games end with Food and Fuel going down to 0, in many combinations of way before NC, during NC, and when the fleet jumps back to NC. Winning with centurions is uncommon, but still happens.


All of those are a) rare and b) playing despite New Caprica, not making New Caprica work. New Caprica makes Fuel, Food, and Centurion losses all significantly more difficult, which means that a Cylon victory with one of those isn't making New Caprica work for them, it's ignoring New Caprica and trying to overcome the disadvantage that New Caprica imposes on achieving those victory conditions.

Not to mention that Cylons can't really do a whole lot to affect Food and Fuel directly without being unrevealed and holding the Admiral or President title.
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i don't think there is a 'sweet spot' at all.
Remember: the admiral can blast off at any time.
Obviously the more ships you try to save, the longer it takes, but the more ships you have, the higher your resources will be.

So lets say you save 6 ships, and 6 still arn't ready. If you blast off, those other 6 ships are destroyed, and resources lost. but you can take that loss, because resource dials are high.

if you already lost those 6 ships earlier, then yes, you only have 6 to save, but resource dials are lwoer. which gives you a lot loss freedom. You will have to save pretty much all of those 6 ships ,or risk lowering resources to zero.

It makes no difference whetehr you lose those ships early in the game when they get destroyed, or at the end of the game. it's still equal loss.

 
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Starfox4 wrote:
It makes no difference whetehr you lose those ships early in the game when they get destroyed, or at the end of the game. it's still equal loss.


It depends what's on the ships - when you're planning your exit from New Caprica, you usually assume that the ships left behind are the 2-pops, the morale, the fuel (probably in that order) and then 1-pops; if you lose them during teh game, they might turn out to have been decoys or 1-pops, reducing the number of civilians you actually need to save to be safe.

Put another way: the information about what's on the ships is relevant to the decision to leave New Caprica or try to rescue more, but only really available through blowing them up beforehand.

There's also a secondary effect to losing civilians before reaching New Caprica - most of the time when you get a choice between losing a civilian or not, the not-losing-a-civilian option comes with its own cost, so saving civilians that are only going to be destroyed later anyway costs you for no benefit.

Of course, if you know which civilians are at risk, that can change the equation - you're enthusiastic about losing decoys (because evacuating them is wasted effort), and okay about losing 1-pops, but you want to keep the double resource ships alive if possible.
 
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rmsgrey wrote:
when you're planning your exit from New Caprica, you usually assume that the ships left behind are the 2-pops, the morale, the fuel (probably in that order) and then 1-pops.

Yeah, i'd always plan for the worst. It'd be annoying to leave NC and end up losing because you miscalculated:
2 X 2 pops
1 X pop + fule
1 X pop + morale
6 X 1 pop
2 X decoy
= a total of 12 pops to lose, + 1 fuel and 1 morale.

So for example, with 5 population left, to be completely safe, i could only leave 2 civilians behind.

Quote:
if you lose them during the game, they might turn out to have been decoys or 1-pops, reducing the number of civilians you actually need to save to be safe.

true, but then on the other hand, if i'd have lost some 2 pops earlier in the game, i could factor that into my calculations, and leave more ships behind. so as before, in my '5 population left' example, if i know that both 2 pops have already been lost, i would deel safe leaving 4 ships behind, not 2.

Quote:
There's also a secondary effect to losing civilians before reaching New Caprica - most of the time when you get a choice between losing a civilian or not, the not-losing-a-civilian option comes with its own cost, so saving civilians that are only going to be destroyed later anyway costs you for no benefit.

when we play, if a loyal human makes the decision to have to lose resources, we'll always lose the one that's highest.
so if population is high, then we'd lose it, but otherwise, we wouldnt (and if it was the case that population is already low, we'll need to save almost all the civilians anyway)
 
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