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Race for the Galaxy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Does 'Research Labs' produce? rss

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EJ Holleman
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Hey y'all,

I recently bought RftG. Thanks to the video tutorials, player aids and rules questions here on BGG I've gotten into the game quite quickly.
Only 'Research Labs' leaves a question: Does it produce an Alien technology in its Produce Phase, and can you take a card for that production? I think not, but help me out, guys and girls....

Thanks!

EJH
 
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Jacob Ossar
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Your instinct is correct. Research Labs does not produce goods. (In fact, no development produces goods.) Its produce phase power allows you to draw a card for each alien good you produce. But unless you have alien production (or windfall, if you have called produce yourself or have a produce on windfalls power from a card like Galactic Engineers or Alien Rosetta Stone World) worlds that produce goods in the produce phase, you don't get the extra cards.
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Tom Lehmann
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jossar wrote:
(In fact, no development produces goods.)

False. Mining Robots and Genetics Labs in the base set produce on windfall worlds without goods of the specified kind. Terraforming Guild, in the first expansion, produces on any one windfall world without a good in your tableau.

Research Labs does not produce any goods itself. If you have an Alien good produced (either because it was a Alien production world without a good or because it was an Alien windfall world without a good that you produced on (by calling Produce or by using some power to do so), then you draw one card for each Alien good produced during that Produce phase.
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Randall Bart
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
jossar wrote:
(In fact, no development produces goods.)

False.

Semantics. I would say no development produces goods. There are developments that cause windfall worlds to produce goods.
 
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Barticus88 wrote:
Tom Lehmann wrote:
jossar wrote:
(In fact, no development produces goods.)

False.

Semantics. I would say no development produces goods. There are developments that cause windfall worlds to produce goods.


Semantics indeed.

You can say that, but then the semantics you use would be inconsistent with the semantics used in the rulebook. The rulebook uses the verb "have" where you are using the word "produce".

E.g., page 7:

Quote:
No world can have more than one good.


Also, the rulebook uses the verb "produce" in pretty much the same way Tom uses it (this should not be a surprise):

Quote:
Some cards, such as Genetics Lab, can also produce goods on windfall worlds (without goods).


It's all fine and dandy if you want to be inconsistent with the rulebook for your own personal pleasure, but pedagogically I think it is better if players who are trying to learn the game are not bombarded with different frames of terminology.
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Guy Srinivasan
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Barticus88 wrote:
Tom Lehmann wrote:
jossar wrote:
(In fact, no development produces goods.)

False.

Semantics. I would say no development produces goods. There are developments that cause windfall worlds to produce goods.

Semantics, maybe, but the rules seem to make it pretty clear that players produce goods, not worlds.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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onigame wrote:
Quote:
Some cards, such as Genetics Lab, can also produce goods on windfall worlds (without goods).

Ha! You're right, some cards can produce goods too.
 
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Jacob Ossar
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I stand corrected. My apologies to ejh231171 if I was inadvertently confusing in my terminology.
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Randall Bart
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onigame wrote:
Semantics indeed.

You can say that, but then the semantics you use would be inconsistent with the semantics used in the rulebook. The rulebook uses the verb "have" where you are using the word "produce".


If you read the rulebook you will find the word "produce" is used at least four different ways.

Page 1: "Some worlds produce goods."
Page 7: "Action: place a good on each world without a good that produces one."
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Barticus88 wrote:


Page 1: "Some worlds produce goods."
Page 7: "Action: place a good on each world without a good that produces one."


I'm inclined to agree with Barticus (never thought I'd say that). The first example he gives is consistent, as of course some worlds produce goods, just as some developments produce goods. But if the meaning of "produces goods" means "causes a good to be placed on a world" then the instruction on page 7 is false. There are many worlds that "produce goods" in the same way that Genetics Lab produces goods (Alien Rosetta Stone World, Universal Symbionts) but you don't place automatically good on them when you produce on them, and in some cases you don't every place a good on them at all.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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All together now: card powers modify the rules. See page 4.

If you don't accept that basic premise, then RFTG is not for you.

Criticizing the general Produce rule because it doesn't cover the exceptions that card powers, such as windfall production powers, create is really missing the point.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Why isn't the general rule "invoke all Produce powers"?
All production worlds have the power to produce a good printed as a Produce power, so a "general rule" that says production rules produce goods is unnecessary.
It would be like listing "draw cards" as part of the Develop general rule just because there are cards that let you draw as a Develop power.

Obviously, you should point out how production worlds specifically work when teaching the game, but from a "rules lawyering" standpoint, they aren't treated any "differently" during the Produce phase. They invoke their power just like every other card.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Obviously, you should point out how production worlds specifically work when teaching the game [...]

That's exactly correct. I wrote the rules from a teaching perspective; not a rules lawyer perspective. I stand by that approach.
 
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Cameron McKenzie
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
Obviously, you should point out how production worlds specifically work when teaching the game [...]

That's exactly correct. I wrote the rules from a teaching perspective; not a rules lawyer perspective. I stand by that approach.


I agree with this, but it seems to me that Jacob's response to the original question was written from a teaching perspective. It doesn't seem to me that players need to agree about the meaning of "produce a good" in order to understand how all of the produce powers work. Unless there is some power in the upcoming expansion which I don't know about which requires you to refer to cards that produce goods (as opposed to just production worlds)
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Tom Lehmann
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I apologize if my response to Jacob's kind explanation came off as unduly harsh. I appreciate Jacob's response.

My concern was that the OP might take away from it something like "development powers never result in goods being produced" and then become confused by Mining Robots or Genetics Lab. That's what led to my comment.
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Randall Bart
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
I apologize if my response to Jacob's kind explanation came off as unduly harsh. I appreciate Jacob's response.

Yes Tom, "False" was harsh, especially with a statement that was essentially true. It can't be misread without leading to contradiction. It's not as though you are precise in the rules.. Just look at page 7. The world produces, then the player produces, then the card produces.

Better than "False" would be "Actually, they do."

(I was well into a diatribe before Tom's last post, but you were all saved from it by a browser crash.)
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Serge Levert
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What i tell new players is that worlds can hold goods, developments cannot.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Barticus88 wrote:
(I was well into a diatribe before Tom's last post, but you were all saved from it by a browser crash.)


Cameron never expected to agree with Barticus. I never expected to rejoice over a browser crash. Will wonders never cease??
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Stephe Thomas
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Why isn't the general rule "invoke all Produce powers"?


That thought struck me when I was proofreading the rules shortly before publication. After all, what you do on a Produce isn't essentially different from what you do on a Consume--you just exercise the appropriate powers in an order of your choosing. Tom felt that writing the Produce rules this way would be more confusing. To a certain extent he's been vindicated the number of newbies who have been terminally confused by the Consume phase, So even though the rules could have been a lot tidier I am forced to concede Tom the Brownie Point on this one.

Edit: Fix formatting.
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