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Subject: gold troubles.... rss

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sonny sonny
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another game where i ran into unpreventable gold troubles :-/

round 1: first event shown is the card "lose half your gold". in first round i did "pay 1f+1g for 2 imps" (the most efficient action available in round 1!), "pay 1g for a room" (got only the digging room) and "dig 2 tunnels". all other players took "take food" btw - which makes it unlikely that they take it again soon. note that even if i had not digged tunnels i would have had serious problems.

round 2: 2nd event is reavealed: taxes. i have only 1 gold. i will be 4th player in next round and need 3 gold for taxes. everyone else will play gold mining as their first action because they have the same problem. conclusion: i have to dig gold this round, so i get 2 (no one else will dig this round because they don't want to lose half of it), and lose half of them. i won't be able to take any action that needs gold nor dig tunnels for this or next round and i still won't be able to pay taxes.

now we keep in mind everyone else faces a gold problem too, they will also avoid actions that cost gold. that leaves me with the following options for this round:
"take food" and hope someone took it before me - which is unlikely because they all took food in round 1.
"propaganda" that i don't want (but still had to take)
"take imps is blocked"
"take trap" and hope someone is before me (did that and indeed got a trap for free)
"take monster" (didn't do because all monsters cost food and i had no idea if i'd ever get food)
"take room is blocked"
"take gold" - get 2 and lose one of them in the event (did that)

i really had no other options. that is not what i'd call a flawless game design. indeed no one else took food.

the following round 3 i had these options:
"take food" and hope someone took it before me - which is unlikely because they're also short on gold and they got food in round 1 - i still took it and actually got food + gold. otherwise it would have been a complete disaster. (the player who took food first was a newbie and then short 1 gold on taxes).
"propaganda" is blocked
"take imps" - which everyone else is also likely to do, making it possible to end up 3rd again and pay 1 gold. paying food isn't much better because i don't know if i get food - did that and got 2 imps for 2 food.
"take trap" is blocked
"take monster" (did that but had to make sure i don't pay an extra food for it and only got one of the two ghosts)
"take room" not possible because i couldn't place them
"take gold" not possible because others would block it

again i had no other options - not what i call a flawless game design. maybe it would have been better to keep the monster action for round 4, but i had nothing else that i could have played in this round. note that i've been lucky to get a gold with food, compensating for the digged tunnels.

in round 4 i could finally mine gold (again an action that i could not really choose but was forced by game mechanics). i had only the digging room and really need another one too for the 2nd year. i had no gold for taking food and i would face the fight with only one ghost and 1-2 traps but my heroes included a healer and a rogue. i will lose 4 dungeon tiles in the fight. assuming that i spend one of my gold for anything that leaves me with 2 options for he 2nd year: either start it with 1 gold, or start it with 2 gold and the mine gold action blocked. half the game is over and most of my actions have been dedicated by a lack of gold that i could not prevent.

i actually got the gold room. my (4) tunnels were destroyed in the fight. note that if i had not built the tunnels to prevent taxes my whole dungeon would have been destroyed. this way i could save my 2 rooms - therefore that was indeed a good move. i started year 2 without tunnels, but with a gold room and 7 imps. i had a ghost and a trap (didn't play it during fight). the event card in year 2 was "pay 1 gold for every room" and the last event was "monster upkeep". i was also facing a tax of 3 gold - in fact 4 because i needed to dig tunnels to mine gold and get another room. so i needed 6 gold for events, i would get 8 in total (2 every round from gold room) and i started with 1-2 gold and no tunnels.

of course it was a bad game for everyone, but the others had at least some options.

in year 2 i actually was very lucky. i got the anti-magic room, a dragon, a slime and a golem and a poison dart (and still had my ghost) and i lost only 1 dungeon tile. indeed i won the game with 17 points (2nd had 16 points). still it wasn't much fun :-/ i felt that too much of the game my actions were forced by random effects.

i do appreciate when there is a shortage of a certain resource in a game, but it should be the same problem for all players. in this case it was especially my problem because (a) i went 4th in the round when everyone needed gold and (b) taking gold earlier did not yield enough.

and that sucks.
 
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David desJardins
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It's hard for me to understand complaining that it was so terrible when you won.
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Sean McCarthy
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So I guess the first question is why did you dig two tunnels instead of one? I mean, I pretty consistently do just that if I have to tunnel pre-taxes, and that's without having the freakin' tunnel room to catch up later!

The other question is why are you not getting any monsters? You had two food left in season two, so why not get one then? I mean, even if you never take more food you can afford one! (There are only two trolls.) But that's not going to happen; you know payday is last so you'll have plenty of time to get some food. Basically the fact that you are even contemplating not killing the adventurers at all is absurd. The game is not forcing you to do that!
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Grant Johnson
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I think you'd have been better off in round 2 taking a monster instead of digging for gold. From your description there was at least 1 slime or 1 witch available. Hopefully that would have prevented more conquering (especially in combination with your ghost and your trap). I think your reasoning was faulty about the scarcity of food- in turn 2 when you didn't want to take a monster for fear of shortage, you already knew that monster payday wasn't until turn 4. And you ended up getting 3 food when you took the action in turn 3, so obviously the other players needed more food as well.

If you'd really been short money you could've taken one more dead letter on tax day. You'd get -3 points for it but you'd make up +2 for each adventurer you captured. And even better if you prevented more conquering (you could have saved 1-2 gold in taxes and some imp labor in tunnelling in year 2).

 
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sonny sonny
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SevenSpirits wrote:
So I guess the first question is why did you dig two tunnels instead of one? I mean, I pretty consistently do just that if I have to tunnel pre-taxes, and that's without having the freakin' tunnel room to catch up later!

that's a valid question but i needed them for the 2nd room. the tunnel digging room does not let me dig between taxes (after round 3) and round 4 actions. after all this saved both my rooms for year 2.

SevenSpirits wrote:
The other question is why are you not getting any monsters? You had two food left in season two, so why not get one then?
because when i played get monster in round 3 i was 2nd and had only the choice between ghost 1 and ghost 2. i could have taken a monster in round 2 (that was indeed a choice that i had) instead of mining gold. maybe that would've been better though i don't know what i should have done in round 3 then. but that shows even more that one can run into serious financial troubles without any fault of his own :-/
 
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Loc Nguyen
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Well, season 2 propaganda is not a bad move. Also, you need to pay more attention to your opponent's moves. For example, you thought no one would take food in season 3, and you ended up getting the third food spot to your benefit.

It also appears that you had no trouble with gold or food year 2. You got 3 monsters meaning you had to use monster in the first spot at least once (which cost a gold). Your year 2 monsters had a total cost of 3 food, 1 gold, 1 trap, and evil with monster pay as the last event.
 
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Grant Johnson
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Also, why on earth didn't you use your trap in year 1? You defended your entire dungeon with a single ghost hit plus fatigue?

You finished with 17 points. From what you described it sounds like three monsters (+3), three rooms (+6), five conquered dungeon tiles (-10), one dead letter (-3). I'd also guess you captured five adventurers (+10) and got 11 points from titles. You could've picked up an easy 4-8 points if you'd taken the adventurers out sooner.

You're really locking in on a strategy before the cards come out. You're forcing yourself into an incredible need for gold every round. You can complain about the events coming up, but during the second year you dropped an additional 2 gold on the Golem, one to take the monster action first and also were able to pick up 6 food for a dragon and a slime. And you carried over gold from year 1 when you could've bought a second/third trap and prevented a good portion of the points you lost.
 
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Guy Srinivasan
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New rule: No whinging about lack of gold until you realize buying monsters to kill adventurers to prevent tunnels from being conquered is at least 5-3=2 points better than building loads of tunnels to prevent adventurers from conquering your whole dungeon because you don't have enough monsters.
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Sean McCarthy
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letsdance wrote:
SevenSpirits wrote:
So I guess the first question is why did you dig two tunnels instead of one? I mean, I pretty consistently do just that if I have to tunnel pre-taxes, and that's without having the freakin' tunnel room to catch up later!

that's a valid question but i needed them for the 2nd room. the tunnel digging room does not let me dig between taxes (after round 3) and round 4 actions. after all this saved both my rooms for year 2.

SevenSpirits wrote:
The other question is why are you not getting any monsters? You had two food left in season two, so why not get one then?
because when i played get monster in round 3 i was 2nd and had only the choice between ghost 1 and ghost 2. i could have taken a monster in round 2 (that was indeed a choice that i had) instead of mining gold. maybe that would've been better though i don't know what i should have done in round 3 then. but that shows even more that one can run into serious financial troubles without any fault of his own :-/


I don't think you read either of my questions correctly because you didn't answer them. Here they are again:

why did you dig two tunnels instead of one?

You had two food left in season two, so why not get one then? [Note: you could perform three actions in round 2, not just gold...]
 
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Matt Albritton
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GreedyAlgorithm wrote:
New rule: No whinging about lack of gold until you realize buying monsters to kill adventurers to prevent tunnels from being conquered is at least 5-3=2 points better than building loads of tunnels to prevent adventurers from conquering your whole dungeon because you don't have enough monsters.


QFT
 
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sonny sonny
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Da L0C wrote:
It also appears that you had no trouble with gold or food year 2.

yeah with the gold production room from round 4 on, that gave me 9 gold total, and i had the unexpected food from year 1. but i think one shouldn't depend on a room that's only available to 2 players.

Quote:
Also, why on earth didn't you use your trap in year 1?
because it would have done exactly 1 damage and not defeat an adventurer.

Quote:
And you carried over gold from year 1
umm. lol. did you read my post? i carried over the gold that i got in round 4. yes i could have taken another trap, but it wouldn't really help me during the fight and when placing orders i didn't know i'd get the gold room. but i did know i'd need money for 2nd year. getting the gold room was more important than an unusable trap anyways (i assume you agree on this).

Quote:
New rule: No whinging about lack of gold until you realize buying monsters (...) is (...) better
*shrug* read my first post. it's not like i didn't want to buy monsters. i didn't do in round 1, in round 2 i dind't have the neeed resources and in round 3 i only got a ghost and had take monster blocked for round 4.

Quote:
why did you dig two tunnels instead of one?
because i needed them! (i did answer this) i needed them to be able to place my rooms well. of course i could've done with only 4 dungeon tiles and lose both rooms during the fight. do you think that's better? i prefer getting -3 points for one tax not paid.

Quote:
You had two food left in season two, so why not get one then? [Note: you could perform three actions in round 2, not just gold...]
quoted from my initial post:
Quote:
didn't do because all monsters cost food and i had no idea if i'd ever get food
note: add "afterwards" i think the monsters were 2 kobolds and a witch. and i remember that people talked about taking monsters so i knew it would be unlikely to get the witch (especially since i would not have been able to afford the food extra payment for first pick) and i didn't want to spend my last 2 food (including later payment) for a kobold. also i needed food for imps. of course you will now say monsters are more important, and generally i agree with that. but without the 2 imps from round 3 i wouldn't have been able to use my rooms often enough during year 2.

quoted from my reply to you:
Quote:
i could have taken a monster in round 2 (that was indeed a choice that i had) instead of mining gold. maybe that would've been better though i don't know what i should have done in round 3 then.
 
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Chris C.
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Dude. It happens from time to time that you get screwed in a certain boardgame. You could have tried to go for as much gold as possible in the first few rounds knowing that the others might avoid it because of the "lose half your gold" card.

I try not to judge too many games after playing only a couple times. People, events and luck can bone you hard. The pedictability of the INSANE has hurt me lots of times.

I do not know how many times you've played this but give it a few more times and get a good feel for how the game plays. Most games have flaws in them. You either deal, or move on to the next game. Seeing as this is your 2nd lengthy post on this game (you had gold issues before) maybe its time to try something new. If you want something really random and unpredictable try Wallenstain!
 
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Loc Nguyen
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Everyone here is just trying to help you out. I've played the First Game rules 6 times before playing the full game, and I use to think and play just like you. The key is learning from your mistakes.

Quote:
but i think one shouldn't depend on a room that's only available to 2 players.


That is why there is 2 food rooms and 2 gold rooms. The food room makes getting monsters and imps easy while the gold room makes it easier to get traps and rooms. Imagine how easy the game would of been had you got the gold room first.

Quote:
note: add "afterwards" i think the monsters were 2 kobolds and a witch. and i remember that people talked about taking monsters so i knew it would be unlikely to get the witch (especially since i would not have been able to afford the food extra payment for first pick) and i didn't want to spend my last 2 food (including later payment) for a kobold. also i needed food for imps. of course you will now say monsters are more important, and generally i agree with that. but without the 2 imps from round 3 i wouldn't have been able to use my rooms often enough during year 2.


There is really no reason to have 7 imps in season 3 when you only have a 2-imp room. Also make it a point to get one monster during round 1 or 2 (unless monster pay is the first event). Now if you did use monsters instead of gold in season 2, you should of mined for gold. This is where your wrong about it getting blocked because if it is blocked for at least one opponent in season 4 (which it was) than you could of put it as your first order and get the Mine II or III spot giving you 3 or 4 gold and blocking someone else (or no-one if someone thought like you and was also afraid of getting blocked).
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Kevin Elmore
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Teeaniknik wrote:
Dude. It happens from time to time that you get screwed in a certain boardgame.


Well, and it strikes me that this game is designed to screw you over. That was one of the draws of this game. I loved Galaxy Trucker, and I loved reading about Dungeon Lords.

I finally played my first game, and I'd have to agree somewhat with the original poster that the game's out to get me.

But that's really the point, isn't it? Even while using the easy rules, I found myself struggling to maintain my resources. If we played the full game, the fight for the resources would have been fierce.

I don't know why there is an expectation to not get screwed over in this game. That's like complaining that chess only has two bishops. Am I missing something in this expectation?
 
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sonny sonny
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Kuildeous wrote:
That's like complaining that chess only has two bishops.

if you put all your effort into keeping your bishops, you will keep them until the game ends. i'm not saying this is a good tactic, but you can do it. in DL sometimes you can't get around the gold troubles, even if you put all your effort into it.
 
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Kevin Elmore
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letsdance wrote:
if you put all your effort into keeping your bishops, you will keep them until the game ends. i'm not saying this is a good tactic, but you can do it. in DL sometimes you can't get around the gold troubles, even if you put all your effort into it.


Although, if your opponent is skilled and intends to take a bishop or two, I would imagine that it would make the game very difficult for you.

I'm not saying that gold won't be an issue. I'm not really qualified to make that kind of statement, but I can recognize that the intent of this game is to screw you in several directions. I agonized about gold, and we weren't even playing with the full rules. I didn't want to do everything I wanted, and I wouldn't dream of playing the game any other way.

Similar to Galaxy Trucker and Red November, I would classify this game as "Crisis Management." I'm sad that's not a category for the mechanic, because that's exactly where I would put DL. You hit the ground running, and it's all uphill.

So, I don't disagree that situations will come up where you can't avoid the gold problem, but I do disagree that it's a sign of a poor mechanic. I think that the risk of getting dead letters is one of many facets that makes the game so interesting.
 
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Grant Johnson
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I agree with Kevin. You ended up in a pretty poor position with the first event, but that's the challenge of the game. You have to deal with crises and being in bad position as best you can. And there are ways to compensate. And I think you demonstrated it fairly well because you won. Most of the discussion on this thread as to what would have been "better", but the fact you overcame the "inevitable" problem points to good design.

If you're really that unhappy with gold you should house rule it, but I don't think you've made a very good argument that the game itself is flawed.
 
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Zubbus O'Really
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1) If you really really need gold, you want to play gold first card. You're more likely to get only 2, but you can play it next turn.
If you play it 2nd or 3 card, you might still just get the 2, AND THEN NOT ABLE TO PLAY IT AGAIN next turn. So you only get 2 gold in 2 turns. Exactly what happened to you, apparently. So maybe that's 1 of the problems. Except scratch the maybe.

2) I think you are far too concerned about the actual amount of gold lost in that event. If you had 4 or 5 gold in your stash, you lose 2. It's not an arm.
Trying to limbo down to 1 gold for that event can seriously limit your options the turn after, and frankly the turns spent trying to get there as well.
 
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