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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » OLD BGGBlogs (do not use)

Subject: Uninspired Geeklists rss

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Mark Taraba
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Well, I guess I'll use the journals for this. Seems more appropriate. However, you could see recent activity of geeklists and I don't think the same is true for journals.

I'm starting to think we need some guidelines for this site or people need to start deleting geeklists. I have done this myself. I do have a few still up. I try to gauge their worth by the number of views, comments and items added. The worst one I have is my case of mistaken identity list. I keep that one around because I feel it's doing a small public service. When someone goes to the wrong Medici page, they can see that most people aren't rating this particular game.

What I'm starting to get irritated with is the number of geeklists about things that seem like they don't need to be geeklisted again or at all. How many lists are there about "games my wife/girlfriend likes/will play"? Go to the Lost Cities page and find out. They're all there and all of them list Lost Cities as one of those games. Then you have the large number of lists about games that non-gamers will play and lists about people that are new to the hobby and want to play some good games.

My pet peeve is the lists about "Games with ..." Games with "names that have ! or ?", trains, cats, birds, dogs, cows, monkeys, rivers, mountains, cities, meeples, hexes, play money, dice, score tracks... and pieces! Some can be searched for. Some just have artwork of these things. That doesn't make me buy a game, but even if you REALLY loved cows, would you not play or buy a game without one? Do you love them so much that you even need to play a bad game with them?

Let me clarify that something along the lines of "games with supply and demand" or "games with evolution or upgrades" aren't in this group. When it's a list about mechanics of a game, then I'm ok with that. It's lists about small parts of themes or artwork that I'm talking about. The don't end up creating a list of similar games and I think people are picking more general categories.

Alright, enough for now. Again I think we need guidelines or users need to delete their redundant lists on their own or... somethings.
 
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John Di Ponio
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I can see your point....I notice lists that make no sense or don't interest me. If you aren't interested....why would you want to even consider viewing them?! I just don't even look at them!!...Problem solved!
I don't mind people making geeklists for whatever reason as long as its not offensive!
 
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Meh
Meh; personally I don't think it's really that big of a deal. Don't really see why anyone should care about other geeklists; if you think it's boring or overdone, then just skip over it. It's a service offered by the 'geek and I really don't see a compelling reasont to put restrictions on it.
 
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Chaddyboy
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I like to use the Geeklists for fun things such as the contest that's being run right now.

Sure, it's great to have the informative lists, but if there weren't any fun/wacky/pointless lists, I doubt I'd bother viewing the Geeklist section.

Granted, most of these lists run their course and should be deleted. After all, they're not any good once the fun wears off since they don't contain any good reference material anyways.

I don't know, I guess I just don't see any reason for guidelines. Why restrict people's creativity through some set of guidelines? It's all in fun!
 
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Luca Iennaco
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I'm with you.
I agree with you.

Yes, I know one can simply skip the "bad" lists, but not having them around at all makes life easier when you're searching for something or simply wandering hoping to find something interesting to read.

Besides, restrictions are difficult to explain properly and it's hard to agreee upon what should be restricted and they should be effective (with a lot of extra works for the Administrators of the website). Some good sense (deleting old, useless lists that no one considers) would be great.

Alternatively, if a list doesn't get any comment or item added (excluding additions from the creator of the list)for 4 weeks (or any reasonable time), it could be auto-deleted by the system (I don't know if this is possible or easy; Aldie?). It's just an idea...
 
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Peter Donnelly
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Right on
Yes, the signal-to-noise ratio in GeekLists is rapidly declining. We see more and more "lists" of just one or two items as an excuse to introduce some topic that belongs in game comments or in the forum. Also way too many "games I own" or "games I want to buy" with negligible commentary.

The argument that you don't have to read lists you're not interested in reminds me of the argument that you shouldn't be bothered by spam because you can just delete it. If you check the Recent Geeklists only every few days, it is now very time-consuming to find new stuff that is interesting, because it is buried in a mass of trivia. The overall quality of information and discussion on the 'Geek suffers when people don't use the service thoughtfully.

Personally I find thematic lists interesting and I have made a few myself, but "games with the letter Z" and the like are not thematic, they are just a trivial exercise.
 
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Mark Taraba
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I wasn't trying to say that we should ban these list. I'm just suggesting something that a new user can look up that lets them know that some of this stuff has been done to death already.

Also suggesting to people that fun lists can be deleted after they've run their course. I made the "Games bubba and his cellmate can play during lockdown" during the whole "Julia" thing and I deleted it after people had their fun.

A list "Games with the quadruped mammals" is more of a game type of list and can be deleted after it's run it's course too.

Making the 20th "games my girlfriend likes to play" and "games we played as kids in the 70s/80s/..." just seems like a waste of space.

I know that I don't have to read them, but I have to scroll past them to change my scores and comments on the games pages. Yes, I adjust my ratings for games. Which is another thing I think should be in a site guidelines.
 
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S W E E T !
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I guess I agree with both sides of the issue: we don't need another "games my woman will play with me" list, but we probably don't need to make up a bunch of rules.

Maybe we could have a Geeklist FAQ that people are "strongly encouraged" to read before posting any Geeklists. They could be warned about duplicating content, making one-entry lists, and reminded about deleting old lists. They could also be "aided" in searching through the database, where they would find the 4 bajillion other geeklists about wives playing.

Just a thought.
 
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Scott Alden
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Derk and I have been talking about doing a system similar to that of slashdot.org where moderators can set the level of a GeekList up or down and the users will be able to set the "threshold" at which they will see content. Anything below your threshold just won't be seen.
 
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Peter Donnelly
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Aldie,

Good to know you're looking at this issue. Another possibility might be to delete lists that are past a certain age and have few views and/or no recent updates or comments.

Also if the forums were better integrated into the look and feel of the site, they might be used more. As it is, one feels one is leaving for another place.
 
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Randall Peek
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Point taken
In light of your opinion of such lists, I am hereby deleting several of my lists, to wit;

The BGG Travel Agency - seems to have fallen fallow

THE List - probably pretty odious to you, as it contains games with THE in their titles, although not the word 'the'

The Rock-Paper-Scissors Conundrum - a mechanism that probably doesn't warrant a list

Spiel des Jahres nominees that SHOULD have won - no new content i a very long time, probably best laid to rest

...and a few that I am not touching;

Randy's appallingly large collection of good games ( a new list)

Randy's designer win, place, and show (still private until completed)

The likeliest BSW candidates (semms pretty popular)

Randy's Top 20 games (I still update this periodically as my tastes change)
 
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Mark Taraba
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Spiel des Jahres nominees that SHOULD have won - no new content i a very long time, probably best laid to rest

IMO, from the description I think you should have kept that one.
 
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D. Quinn Nix
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I was going to create a Geeklist titled, Euro Games That Have a Wooden Piece That Looks Like a Buttplug, including on that list such games as El Grande, Settlers of Catan, Age of Steam, Kupferkessel, and Palmyra, but I thought better of it. I thought that Geeklist would be just too damn silly and superfluous, if not outright obnoxious.

 
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Gilles Kutten
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Hum, I'd always thought that Geeklists are what they say: "GEEK"lists... That's why I won't delete mine(s)! I'm a geek so i'm doing "GEEK"lists, like lists that list all the games I bought this year! Clearly, my lists differs slightly from the other "what i bought" lists, because it shows, how much of a "GEEK" I am... (poor me)!
 
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Mark Taraba
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Well, I guess you have to judge if this is doing anyone else any good. If everyone did that then these pages would be a mile long (I guess measured in printed pages placed end to end since it doesn't really apply to web pages). You can always keep the list and make it private.
 
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Burke Glover
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It shouldn't be time sensitive!
Just because a list has been around for a long time doesn't mean it has no reference value, even if it isn't updated often. Plenty of my geeklist favorites are ones that have been around since the dawn of geeklists.
 
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Burke Glover
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"Bumping"
Also, putting every geeklist on automatic self destruct would lead to that idiotic internet phenomenon where people will send empty posts to keep it "bumped" onto the recently used list. Like most other obnoxious internet conventions, this is currently not a problem on BoardGameGeek. Why make it one?
 
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John O'Haver
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In general, I find most geek lists are entertaining when they reveal something of the author, no matter how trivial the subject of the list. I am fascinated by the interaction of gamers with members of their own group and in the BGG community. (As well as people at large). I perceive this community is as much a social one as an informative one.

Many of the lists along the lines of "games I own or want" cover the same highly rated ground. I'll usually skip those. I'll skip over the ones in which the list title references a game, game subject or mechanism that has no personal interest to me. But I go over the lists that reference a subject/mechansim/era I like with a fine tooth comb. But granted my interests are pretty narrow.

But I like the geek list as a game in itself idea too. The Naaaaame Gaaaame and Beware of Geeks baring GIFs had me in stitches for days. There are some pretty funny people out there. But folks gravitate to the action. I doubt one more entry to the Naaaame Gaaaame would get many to jump just to check it out.

Frequent visitors usually sense when a geek list has effectively expired in the same way people talking know when the conversation has moved on. For better or worse, by this time tomorrow this journal entry thread will be in the "previous ten" section.

Ok, I deleted my first geeklist "12 Things I never want to do in a game again." It was more of a organized rant just to clear my head after purging the collection. Almost deleted my only other list but I had a new comment in past couple days. I'll let it ride a while longer

 
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MTG Ninja
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no offence but geeklists been sucking the bone lately zzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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SH W
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Getting personal
I am the creator of Games with "!" and "?". I have thought about deleting it many times because of Mark's comment, since long time ago. But many many has contributed to it, and I am now in a dilemma as to, will that be right to delete their contributions. Any thoughts? I have been deleting lists with little response, so help me, I have been deliberating over this particularly tricky one for a long time. I am ok either way.
 
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Norman Petry
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Just make them Private
I dislike the idea of a Slashdot-style rating threshhold for viewing geeklists, as it just creates a lot of needless bureaucratic overhead for the people who need to rate the lists, and rate the raters. It also requires a whole system of trust to be implemented to prevent abuse. It's a horrendously complex solution to what is a fairly simple problem, imho.

What I would propose is that the system regularly apply some sort of heuristic to all public geeklists to decide if they have become "obsolete". An obsolete geeklist might be one which:

a) Has not received any 3rd party commentary within a certain period of time

b) Hasn't been updated by its owner within some interval.

c) Has fewer than X number of page views/week for Y weeks in a row...

etc. These (and other) factors could be combined in various ways to make the determination. Anyway, you get the idea. The exact heuristic used doesn't really matter. Anything reasonable would do, and can always be adjusted if it causes unforseen problems. Checking for obsolete lists is something that doesn't need to be done continuously -- a daily (or even weekly) cron job would be sufficient.

Once an "obsolete" public geeklist has been identified, it should not be deleted. Instead, the system should mark it as a private list, and send a message to the owner, suggesting they delete it or update it with new content before making it public again. Additionally, the system could warn the author that this obsolete, now private geeklist will be deleted within 30 days, or some other period of time, if no action is taken. This automatic deletion idea is optional -- if storage is not an issue, these lists could be kept around indefinitely, since they don't cause problems for other users.

I think this simple solution would solve most of the problems associated with too many public geeklists, without creating other types of problems -- such as deleting old lists that still have valuable content. Implementing this idea has *got* to be simpler than setting up a rating and filtering system along with a system of trust metrics for users. It's also much less work for visitors. I come here to *read* the content in geeklists and game descriptions, not review it all. That seems more like work than play!

Comments?
 
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Matt Sargent
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my opinion
The thing about geeklists is that they became the place for people to have casual conversations about gaming in general. The only problem with this is that the list format is not really the best format for those kinds of discussions. Personally I'd like to see the geeklists phased out in favor of using the diaries as the primary place for miscellaneous discussion. That way you could work on improving the diary interface and discard the geeklists.
 
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L Z
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A problem?
My opinion is that this problem is not a problem. It's true that sometimes some uninspired geeklist pops up (and I include most of mine glists), but it's even more true that sometimes amongst uninspired geeklists you can find some diamonds of humour that make you laugh in front of the computer. Personally, I fear that if you put too restrictive rules over geeklists, people will be afraid to post silly ones that could make us ROTFL. And by me this would be a great LOSS for BGG.
Only my two cents.
 
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L Z
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Furthermore
I'd like to add that the only kind of geeklists that I don't like is the one where the author puts only the image and the title of the game, without any kind of comment. What's the point in reading a long list of titles with photos without any comment? ???
 
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Peter Donnelly
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Nipping in the bud
The sheer number of old, unwanted lists is only part of the problem. The bigger problem, as I see it, is the number of new lists being posted that crowd out the interesting stuff in "Recent GeekLists".

User education may be the key here. A lot of new users are making lists simply because they're easily discoverable, without knowing the alternatives. I'd suggest that whenever a user creates a list, the first thing he or she sees is a page something like this:

=====================================
Before creating a GeekList, please ask yourself the following questions:

1. Is this going to be just a list of games you own? If so, consider using the Collections feature instead. Whenever you enter a rating or comment for an individual game, that game is put in your collection. Users can search for your collection by your user name and can sort and filter in various ways; for example, to see your most highly rated games.

2. Is this a list of games you've played recently? If so, consider using the Sessions feature instead. When you write session reports for various games, and enter the same gaming group and date for each, these entries are collected in a session. Users can browse sessions by group and date.

3. Is this a list of your highest- or lowest-rated games? If so, consider using the Ratings feature instead (see point 1). However, a GeekList may be appropriate if you have a particular point to make; for example, games you dislike because they all share some common weakness.

4. Does this list have a theme? If so, it is a theme that others are likely to find interesting, useful, or amusing? "Games that Come in Green Boxes" is probably not an interesting theme; "Games that Use Unusual Randomizers" probably is.

5. Is this a list of games you are considering buying? If so, consider using the many other resources of the 'Geek to make your decision. Look at the reviews, session reports, user ratings, and comments for each game on your wishlist. If you have particular questions about a game, write an article on the game page; you will almost always get helpful replies within a few days.

If your list is not likely to be of interest to other users, please mark it Private. Also, please mark any new list Private until you have completed your "first draft". This will keep it from showing up multiple times in Recent Geeklists.
=====================================
 
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