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Subject: VOID's power is "Cosmic Zapped" but someone forgot about the FUNGUS rss

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Stephen Stewart
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Hmm, in the effort in being "friendly" in the Cosmos, the designers have decided to SCREW the VOID over.

Previously, (old schoolers remember the TRUE VOID), the VOID is not restricted to the amount of ships it will eradicate, thus giving it the ability of ELIMINATING a player from the game. This gave the VOID's power some respect. Align or get annihilated, and if you aren't careful, you are out of the game. Now in my 15 years of playing CE. I've seen a player get down to ONLY 7 ships remaining.

In steps FFG, Neutralizing the VOID in preventing any ships beyond 15 from being eliminated (or otherwise not less than 5-enough to allow a "normal" win)...PFFFTT.

So essentially, you can continue your game and have a chance to win. That's all fine and dandy, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUNGUS!!

There is a situation where you can NOT HAVE A SHIP to place in the attack cone when it's your turn. SO YOU CAN'T GO since you can't place ANY units in the cone. You could get completely FUNGUSized and have all of your ships adhered to by the FUNGUS leaving you with NONE.

The VOID's restriction is on his card...There is no restriction on the FUNGUS card from what I've seen, nor in the rules...

The FUNGUS is the new VOID!!!
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Fabian
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Go go gadget rant!
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Luke O'Hearn
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Voided ships are gone forever, while Fugusised ships can potentially come back. That's why Void is restricted and Fungus is not.

ASLChampion wrote:
Now in my 15 years of playing CE. I've seen a player get down to ONLY 7 ships remaining.


That can still happen in FFG, just not fewer than four ships. IMO, being reduced to five ships is practically being eliminated from the game. Has anyone here ever seen a player win with 15 ships removed from the game?
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Toomai Glittershine
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ASLChampion wrote:
In steps FFG, Neutralizing the VOID in preventing any ships beyond 15 from being eliminated (or otherwise not less than 5-enough to allow a "normal" win)...PFFFTT.
You missed a step - CE Online. I suppose removing players from an online game in progress was too difficult to program (at least at the time). Combined with the general spirit of the game (the original designers of CE wanted a game where no player could be eliminated before it's over), this lead to Void being unable to eradicate entire players.
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Jack Reda
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It's true the scariness of Void has been tempered, but a couple of things:

- As you you, you've never seen it happen, and in over 20 years of CE I have never seen it happen either. It's very hard to remove a player from the game. But in FFG's defense, their goal is to make CE as enjoyable as possible for the widest audience, and removing a player from the game usually ranks pretty low in a gamer's positive experience. You lost, and were humiliated as well- damn.

- Try winning the game with only 5 ships. You might as well be eliminated.
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Just a Bill
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
(the original designers of CE wanted a game where no player could be eliminated before it's over)

Can you cite the source for this, please? The original Eon wording for Void suggests just the opposite: "When a player has lost more than 15 of his original tokens through eradication, and can no longer win the game, he discards his hand and is out of the game."

The Warp wrote:
Try winning the game with only 5 ships. You might as well be eliminated.

That's exactly why I wish they just let Void (and Wild Fury, and Wild Guerrilla) knock players out entirely. I think many players would rather be eliminated (speeding the game up so they can start a new one that much sooner) than limp along pathetically with only five ships and no way to get any back, just waiting for somebody else to win.

If we're debating what's "nicer", it can certainly be argued that leaving the poor slob on life support with just enough ships to look like he has a chance, while really having virtually no chance, is more "cruel" than elimination. Wouldn't you rather be free to go to the loo or get some pizza instead of having to go through the motions of your turn with virtually no hope of winning?

Leave a player in with just 5 ships and he's likely to do whatever he can to play kingmaker — one of the most dreaded outcomes for any game designer.
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Barney Bustoffson
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Aha, but down is not out. I was in a game where I had all 20 of my ships in the warp, but I drew a new hand packed with good cards and inched my way back to a solo win. It was my finest hour in Cosmic Encounter. I have mixed feelings about the Void change, but I do think that Fungus didn't need any additional info.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Bill Martinson wrote:
Toomai Glittershine wrote:
(the original designers of CE wanted a game where no player could be eliminated before it's over)

Can you cite the source for this, please? The original Eon wording for Void suggests just the opposite: "When a player has lost more than 15 of his original tokens through eradication, and can no longer win the game, he discards his hand and is out of the game."
The old wording for Void shocked me exactly because it could eradicate a player, since my first edition was CEO and I didn't read the old texts until after I'd seen this 2005 interview with Peter Olotka. The relevant part (near the bottom) is when Peter talks about the initial design of the original game (I bolded the relevant line):
Peter Olotka wrote:
In the early 70's I had sort of gotten into playing a lot of RISK with friends. The games took hours, and players were often eliminated way before the game ended, and others were still in but knew that they could never win. And the tedium of rolling dice was wearing us down.

At the time I was not working and was thinking about looking for creative work of some kind. I saw an article in the paper about a couple of guys who made the Godfather game. And thought that I could do something like that.

So the initial impetus for Cosmic was to be NOT RISK. I was also reading a lot of science fiction, and there were no science fiction games in existence. I asked Bill Eberle to help think about it with me. We came up with a list of principles for our game.
It would be science fiction.
It would be different each time you played.
Players would be able to win together.
There would be a balance of compromise and attack.
There would be no dice.
Players would not be eliminated before the game ended.

We built a prototype...

Along the way we took on 2 more partners Jack Kittredge and Bill Norton. Norton sold his share back to us early on.

We got Parker Brothers to license the game in the mid seventies. But the deal fell through, and we formed Eon Products and did it ourselves.
 
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Just a Bill
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Bustoffson wrote:
Aha, but down is not out. I was in a game where I had all 20 of my ships in the warp, but I drew a new hand packed with good cards and inched my way back to a solo win.

Sure, plenty of us have battled back from situations like that ... but 20 ships in the warp is a walk in the park compared to 15 ships removed from the game. The former is a challenge to be overcome through patience, luck, and ingenuity; the latter is a death sentence you simply wait to have carried out while going through the motions of "playing the game".

Toomai Glittershine wrote:
this 2005 interview with Peter Olotka
Peter Olotka wrote:
RISK ... took hours, and players were often eliminated way before the game ended, and others were still in but knew that they could never win.

Interesting read; thanks for the link. I find it interesting that their list of principles didn't also include "players won't be stuck in a game knowing they can never win" since Peter listed that as a downside of Risk, and in the same breath as early elimination. Which brings me back to my question: Which is worse? Getting eliminated or lingering on knowing you have no chance?

Let me put it another way: You show up to a friend's house and a game of Cosmic is already in progress. Bob says "Hey, you wanna take over green? Tony just had to leave to pick up his mom from rehab". You look at green and see that all 20 ships are in the warp. Interesting challenge ... you just might do it.

Next week, you show up in the middle of a game and Bob says "Hey, why don't you sit in as yellow; Chip had to go home a few minutes ago because his ferret got loose, ate all the fried pork rinds, and is pooping all over his Bon Jovi bedspread." You look at the board and see that yellow has only five ships left in the game (two on single-ship foreign colonies, a pair on a single home colony, and one in the warp), and 15 in the box. Void is in the game and yellow's alien is face down. "Nah, I'll just wait for the next game."

Who really wants to play with only five ships? I can't imagine anybody thinking it's going to be fun in any way (other than to screw with people as a spoiler or kingmaker). I'd rather be eliminated and just see what's in Bob's refrigerator until the next game starts.

Anybody feel the other way about it?
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Jefferson Krogh
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Since cards are far more important than ships, I wouldn't be averse to stepping in for Chip in that situation.

More importantly, I'd smack Chip around for sending too many ships against Void in the first place. And for having Bon Jovi bedspreads. Mainly the latter. whistle
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Since the scenarion is so horribly unlikely I'm hard pressed to think of what I'd actually do if it happened. I guess I'm the kind of person who'd have the mad gleam of victory in his eyes if he ever got a royal flush at Poker - rendering the hand completely useless, of course.
 
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Barney Bustoffson
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Exactly. I can't expend this much energy worrying about a scenario that will likely never occur in 1000 games of CE.
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Stephen Stewart
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ASLChampion wrote:

So essentially, you can continue your game and have a chance to win. That's all fine and dandy, BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FUNGUS!!

There is a situation where you can NOT HAVE A SHIP to place in the attack cone when it's your turn. SO YOU CAN'T GO since you can't place ANY units in the cone. You could get completely FUNGUSized and have all of your ships adhered to by the FUNGUS leaving you with NONE.

The VOID's restriction is on his card...There is no restriction on the FUNGUS card from what I've seen, nor in the rules...


Does anyone know what my point was...?

My point is that the FUNGUS can CAPTURE all your ships, not entirely unlikely, and you can't go at all!!

Having 20 ships in the warp is not an issue, as you obtain one per challenge. I've seen this many times.

We House Rule the VOID to not stop on ERADICATION of units. Since it's difficult to do, I'd almost be honored to lose all my ships to the VOID.

ALMOST like the BUFFALO BILLS losing 4 straight SUPER BOWLS...That feat will probably not occur in our lifetimes. To appear in 4 consecutive is a helluva FEAT to be commended, unfortunately, no wins to speak of. The petty people look only at the end result. No one will get there 4 straight times in a row ever again.

EVEN the LAKERS can't SNAKE their way into the FINALS every year!!
 
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Stephen Stewart
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Bustoffson wrote:
Exactly. I can't expend this much energy worrying about a scenario that will likely never occur in 1000 games of CE.


ROFL

Don't you realize which game you are playing????

Look at the combination of powers likely to be against one another, You will NEVER (most likely, so I say NEVER) EVER have the same game twice, therefore, this scenario is more likely than not...



anyhow...
I was down to just a few ships...very close...unlikely but close.

Royal Flushes are also unlikely, but they do occur.

THUS the GREATNESS OF CE!!!
 
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Stephen Stewart
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
The relevant part (near the bottom) is when Peter talks about the initial design of the original game (I bolded the relevant line):
Peter Olotka wrote:

Players would not be eliminated before the game ended.
.


Sure, that's all fine and dandy, but things change from initial creation of the game and final production. I LIKE the elimination.

Most games of CE, you know you will lose, as long as there are players willing to work together to a JOINT win. If you mandate a SOLO, win...ALL is POSSIBLE!!

I recently won a game with a Meh power by playing no card higher than a 4 and no special artifacts used for the final victory...

 
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Luke O'Hearn
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I agree there should be a rule concerning playing your turn with all your ships (that aren't removed from the game) sitting under Fungi.

It's unlikely to come up much, but it breaks the program if it does. I'd say either you miss your turn or reclaim a ship from Fungus, but there should be a rule.
 
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I'd just rule that Fungus can't capture more than 75% of your ships....
 
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crimhead wrote:
I agree there should be a rule concerning playing your turn with all your ships (that aren't removed from the game) sitting under Fungi.

It's unlikely to come up much, but it breaks the program if it does. I'd say either you miss your turn or reclaim a ship from Fungus, but there should be a rule.


I'd vote for relclaiming one from the Fungus. Or perhaps that Fungus cannot take your last ship.
 
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Just a Bill
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Or, maybe you're just screwed until Fungus loses some ships (or Wild Fungus loses the flare), and next time will be more careful about how many ships you risk.

Arbitrary "patch" rules are really ugly.
 
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Bill Martinson wrote:
Or, maybe you're just screwed until Fungus loses some ships (or Wild Fungus loses the flare), and next time will be more careful about how many ships you risk.

Arbitrary "patch" rules are really ugly.


So would you not get a turn at all? Would you at least get a regroup phase, so you can plague Fungus? Would your turn end on the launch phase?

I don't like patch rules either, but if you don't have at least one ship for the gate, we need a rule for what should happen.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Without a "patch" rule, the offense simply has to make an encounter with no ships. I see no technical problem with this.
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
Without a "patch" rule, the offense simply has to make an encounter with no ships. I see no technical problem with this.


An opportunity to remove an opponent's home colony and send his ships to the warp at no risk to one's own position? I'd say only allow this if the offense has *NO* ships to send, including the theoretical ship acquired in Regroup.

Otherwise, it becomes a weaksauce option that only Amoeba should really get to employ.
 
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Just a Bill
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I think that's what Toomai is suggesting: if (and only if) you absolutely cannot put a ship into the gate, you make an encounter with 0 offensive ships. I agree that there are no technical problems with this (Amoeba already allows the same situation and it doesn't break anything).

Even if this were allowed voluntarily (and I'm not saying it should be), I don't really see the "weaksauce" problem. Sure, you're risking 0 ships, but you're also paying the opportunity cost of your encounter and losing the chance to gain a foreign colony. Saving one ship (5% of your fleet) from risk is not worth giving up the chance at a foreign colony (20% of your victory points).

If you think you're going to win, it would be lunacy not to put at least one ship into the gate. If you think you're going to lose, then you aren't expecting to displace the other guy's home colony. It would appear to be self-balanacing.

But again, I don't think anyone's saying it should be a normal option. It's just a logical suggestion for what would happen when there are literally no ships available to the offensive player. He must make an encounter, but he cannot put a ship in the gate ... and Amoeba shows us that the car can indeed "run on fumes".
 
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Just a Bill
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Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
Since cards are far more important than ships, I wouldn't be averse to stepping in for Chip in that situation.

I think you might be missing the point. Cards often outperform ships for winning encounters, but they are useless for holding colonies.

Kobold Curry Chef wrote:
More importantly, I'd smack Chip around for sending too many ships against Void in the first place. And for having Bon Jovi bedspreads. Mainly the latter. whistle

Yeah, I get so totally creeped out when Chip shows up. Dork thinks he's a rock star or something. Every time the dude wins an encounter, he gets in the other guy's face and shrieks "Have a Nice Day". He should be more normal like the rest of us and get some Star Wars linens. Or maybe the Six Million Dollar Man.
 
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Toomai Glittershine wrote:
Without a "patch" rule, the offense simply has to make an encounter with no ships. I see no technical problem with this.


The rules clearly mandate one to four ships in the launch. Your solution is a patch rule (but a good one).
 
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