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Subject: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Results posted and official! rss

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Jack K
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This is the discussion thread for the math trade.

Tax day is soon upon us in the U.S. For some, this will be a day of celebration at getting a nice big refund. For others it will be a day of sadness as they have to send money to the Tax Man. For those who leave it to the last minute it will be a time of great stress. For everyone else it will be a chance to sit back and be happy that you didn't have to worry about it.

It seems like everyone will have a reason to need a math trade. To celebrate, ease the pain or just because we haven't had an open one for a little while.

So let's have at it...

Request GeekList: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/53915
Trade GeekList: http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/53917

Use of the On-Line Want List Generator (OLWLG) is required for this event (please remember to tip JeffyJeff some GG for his support).

Key dates (all times are CENTRAL TIME)

Open for posting games: Now until Monday, April 19th (10am)

Want list submission period: Monday, April 19th (10am) until Wednesday, April 21st (10pm) - no extensions!

Results posted within an hour thereafter.


Please do not delete items or sweeteners once you have listed them. You can always submit a blank want list for an entry if you've traded it away before the deadline.

OK - some simple rules - please take a few minutes to read them:


d10-1 Gift certificates, Geekgold, DVDs, items outside the scope of BGG etc are all permitted.

d10-2 Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed. Neither are cash offerings.

d10-3 Non-game entries must be added as "Outside the Scope of BGG" (game id 23953) or "Miscellaneous Game Accessory" (game id 5985) and must include the +altname+ brief description -altname- format in the description of your item.

d10-4 You are expected to describe, as accurately as is reasonably possible, the condition (components and box), language and edition of your item in the description. This includes sweeteners if they are physical items (i.e. not GG).

For games not brand new (in shrink) you must inventory the game's components and list anything missing. Do not assume it's complete. Also, remember that just because something is "new in shrink" that doesn't mean that you shouldn't disclose any dings. It might not matter to you, but it matters to some people.

If the game and/or expansion you are listing is a "Print & Play" make that clear in the description (and I recommend you give specifics what it was printed on, mounted on, etc).

If you are listing an expansion if you reference the base game in the description be clear one way or the other if you are including the base game or not. Do not include a link to the base game unless you are including it as this looks, in the OLWLG, as if you are.

d10-5 You must clearly state your shipping policy in your listing. You are not required to ship outside of your own country but your shipping restrictions outside of your own country must be clearly stated and if you are not covering full shipping elsewhere, then you must state precisely how much of the shipping you will cover.

You are not permitted to require a specific amount for shipping from the recipient and must cover at least the first $5 of shipping costs for items you send out. "Mirror shipping" is not allowed.

Any ambiguity will be interpreted as generosity on your part. This means that if you don't include a shipping policy, then it is assumed that you will ship anywhere in the world for free!

d10-6 Sweeteners are to be listed using the "Insert Geek Link" dropdown or you can manually insert the GAMEID using BGG formatting. If you don't use this format your sweeteners won't show up in the OLWLG properly.

d10-7 If you've been reported to me as a bad trader, you cannot participate. If you try to, I will remove your entries.

d10-8 Please do NOT include links to other games in your entry unless you are actually including them as a sweetener, as this is displayed in a misleading manner by the OLWLG.

d10-9 If you feel the need to use them, please keep disclaimers short and to the point so they don't make things hard to read. If you need to use a longer disclaimer, please include a link to it in each of your entries instead of copying the whole thing into each entry - thanks.

d10-1d10-0 Finally - you are expected to periodically check during the item submission period, and preferably during the want list submission period, to see if anyone has commented on your entries. People often ask questions of items - most commonly because you have forgotten to state a version, language or shipping policy - and you should check in to address such questions in a timely manner should they arise, so that everyone then has the correct information available.

You will NOT be able to respond to comments in the GeekList once it is locked down and the submission period begins.

Other useful information

OLWLG Help: http://boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/OLWLG

Software Used: TradeMaximizer 1.4 with duplicate protection. SEED=1234567, ITERATIONS=100, METRIC=USERS-TRADING


Geekgold restrictions:

Users may not post more geekgold than they currently have. Geekgold arbitrage is not allowed.


Key dates (all times are CENTRAL TIME)

Open for posting games: Thursday, April 15th (10am) until Monday, April 19th (10am)

Want list submission period: Monday, April 19th (10am) until Wednesday, April 21st (10pm) - no extensions!

Results posted within an hour thereafter.


Want list submission

Submissions may be made at any time after the 19th at 10am, but only by the OLWLG. If you will be unavailable during the want list submission period but still wish to participate, contact me directly and we can discuss alternatives.

Note: only errors by the moderator will invalidate the results.

Also in the case that there is a problem after the results are posted, at most it will only invalidate the affected trade chain(s) and not the entire results set. In addition if the problem can be resolved by the most directly affected party or parties, then that is perfectly acceptable.

Please note that it's best to work on your want list and submit them early - you can always make changes and resubmit later. This will prevent you from being left out if you forget the deadline.

Also: Creating want lists is not the same as submitting them. To submit them you will need to click on the "Submit My Wants" button. If you're not sure how to find this, consult the documentation referenced above or ask in the discussion thread.


When you submit your want lists, you will receive a confirming GeekMail. If you don't get one, your want lists haven't been submitted. Your want lists in the GeekMail may be truncated - this is fine.

Thanks for reading to the bottom here - you may be in a minority.

Please enter lots of items and have some fun with this. Good luck!
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Jack K
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
No more updates on the number of items trading - it takes so long with this many items that it's not worth it at this point.

# MISSING 19 WANTS (0.8%) FROM 6 USER(s) (2.1%):
# dcrowell (7)
# gooble (3)
# l10n0fjudah (2)
# Quarashi (5)
# scottsnew1 (1)
# Shnikes (1)
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Jack K
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Results are posted here:

http://bgg.activityclub.org/olwlg/trades-summary.cgi?listid=...
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Jack K
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Just to reiterate - this is six and a half days from start to finish:

Key dates (all times are CENTRAL TIME)

Open for posting games: Thursday, April 15th (10am) until Monday, April 19th (10am)

Want list submission period: Monday, April 19th (10am) until Wednesday, April 21st (10pm)

Results posted within an hour thereafter.
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Randolph Bookman
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed.

Just out of curiosity why is this not allowed? I know it's pretty much a standard rule, but I'm just not sure I understand the problem behind it.
 
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
shieldwolf wrote:
Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed.

Just out of curiosity why is this not allowed? I know it's pretty much a standard rule, but I'm just not sure I understand the problem behind it.


It is widely considered dishonest to trade a $20 gift certificate up for a $30 gift certificate (or 100 GG for 300 GG, etc). The purpose of MathTrades is NOT so that individuals can profit, but so that hobby gamers can trade games. When arbitrage starts happening, the tone and content of MT's shift.
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Mark Tyler
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
MScrivner wrote:
It is widely considered dishonest to trade a $20 gift certificate up for a $30 gift certificate (or 100 GG for 300 GG, etc). The purpose of MathTrades is NOT so that individuals can profit, but so that hobby gamers can trade games. When arbitrage starts happening, the tone and content of MT's shift.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't there scenarios in which more games could be traded if arbitrage is allowed?

The great thing about math trades is that you never get anything you didn't ask for. If someone happens to prefer trading a game for 100 GG but not 200 GG, that could introduce a scenario where a person trading 100 GG for 200 GG completes the cycle to make the game trade possible.

If more math traders are able to complete a trade, and no one got something they didn't want, how is this dishonest?
 
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Murray C
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
m_r_tyler wrote:
MScrivner wrote:
It is widely considered dishonest to trade a $20 gift certificate up for a $30 gift certificate (or 100 GG for 300 GG, etc). The purpose of MathTrades is NOT so that individuals can profit, but so that hobby gamers can trade games. When arbitrage starts happening, the tone and content of MT's shift.

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't there scenarios in which more games could be traded if arbitrage is allowed?

The great thing about math trades is that you never get anything you didn't ask for. If someone happens to prefer trading a game for 100 GG but not 200 GG, that could introduce a scenario where a person trading 100 GG for 200 GG completes the cycle to make the game trade possible.

If more math traders are able to complete a trade, and no one got something they didn't want, how is this dishonest?


From what I can see by looking at it logically, if you're willing to trade your game for $20, you would also check off the $30 GC as well. However, if someone offering the $20 checks off the $30, then they can effectively insert themselves easily into almost any trade involving games for $ or and "rob" someone of the chance to get a bit more when they could've gotten it.

Edit: Helpful Flowchart:
A: Offering RoboRally, wants Campaign Manager
B: Offering $30, wants Robo Rally
C: Offering $20, wants higher $ GC
D: Offering Campaign Manager, wants $20 or more

Without arbitrage: A->B->D->A
With arbitrage: A->B->C->D->A

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Jeff Michaud
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
MScrivner wrote:
shieldwolf wrote:
Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed.

Just out of curiosity why is this not allowed? I know it's pretty much a standard rule, but I'm just not sure I understand the problem behind it.
It is widely considered dishonest to trade a $20 gift certificate up for a $30 gift certificate (or 100 GG for 300 GG, etc). The purpose of MathTrades is NOT so that individuals can profit, but so that hobby gamers can trade games. When arbitrage starts happening, the tone and content of MT's shift.

It's not just the moral/fairness issue to allow "skimming" simply by acting as a middle man for doing nothing, it's a technical reason as well as....

.... such trades can (and have) displaced real trades. Keep in mind that the trade resolver (trademax in this case) is finding a result set out of a larger universe of possible result sets that all maximize the number of items trading. So for example in a given math trade where 100 items trade there could (and have been) one result set where 100 real trades occur, and another where only 99 real trades occur and one instance of GG arbitrage...

Think about it this way... next time let's say you play a game of Power Grid and you are the banker... see how the other players like it if you skim off the top of everyone's income payouts (and/or every payment to the bank for power plant and raw material purchases).
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
You know, I actually allowed arbitage in the MT I ran last month but no one ended up trading GG for GG or GCs for GCs. I was surprised to say the least. Since it's not too common these days for MT's to allow arbitage, perhaps no one noticed my rule change this time around.

I'll do another MT which allows it at some point, but it'll probaly be awhile.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Hey Jack, I just had to take your cat, Ginger, to the vet. The bill come to the same cost as a copy of Antiquity. Just let me know when you can drop your copy of this game off to repay me.
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Jeff Michaud
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
m_r_tyler wrote:
Just to play Devil's Advocate here, aren't there scenarios in which more games could be traded if arbitrage is allowed?

Only if someone is willing (or screws up) to take in trade smaller amounts of GG but not larger amounts. Otherwise what arbitrage does is allow a middle man (the person shooting for arbitrage) to get in between and "skim" off the top. For example:

Joe is willing to trade his game for any geek gold (GG) offering of 200 or more.

Mark happens to be offering 200 GG (he not even need have any GG in his possession) and is willing to trade this for any larger amount of GG.

Jeff is offering 250 GG and is willing to trade if for let's say a $25 gift cert.

Since TradeMax is trying to max the trades, and the only way Mark's item (200 GG) can trade is by inserting Mark into the trade chain between Joe and Jeff. So Joe who likely would have got 250 GG gets only 200 GG, and quite possibly as I mentioned in my previous post another real (ie. not GG or GC arbitrage) item may not be trading.

One of the last MT's that allowed GG arbitrage it's exactly what happened... going back and editing the want lists to remove the arbitrage case Joe would have got the larger GG amount and someone who got no trades would have had a trade (one more real item trading).
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
aksosa wrote:
I'll do another MT which allows it at some point, but it'll probaly be awhile.

you can count me out of that one! why you would deliberately allow it perplexes me knowing it adds nothing and can only screw folks over.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Cate108 wrote:
Hey Jack, I just had to take your cat, Ginger, to the vet. The bill come to the same cost as a copy of Antiquity. Just let me know when you can drop your copy of this game off to repay me.


As soon as Bill gets tired of his copy and gives it to me, it's yours.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Cate108 wrote:
Hey Jack, I just had to take your cat, Ginger, to the vet. The bill come to the same cost as a copy of Antiquity. Just let me know when you can drop your copy of this game off to repay me.


I think I remember Jack saying something about having an extra case of Fluxx lying around. Probably about the same MSRP as Antiquity. I'm sure he can send that instead...
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
anglotiger wrote:
Cate108 wrote:
Hey Jack, I just had to take your cat, Ginger, to the vet. The bill come to the same cost as a copy of Antiquity. Just let me know when you can drop your copy of this game off to repay me.


As soon as Bill gets tired of his copy and gives it to me, it's yours.


Can you trade Ginger to Bill for something? That way we can cut out the middleman.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
mbuckingham wrote:
Cate108 wrote:
Hey Jack, I just had to take your cat, Ginger, to the vet. The bill come to the same cost as a copy of Antiquity. Just let me know when you can drop your copy of this game off to repay me.


I think I remember Jack saying something about having an extra case of Fluxx lying around. Probably about the same MSRP as Antiquity. I'm sure he can send that instead...


No thanks... the litter box will not hold that many copies. gulp

Heck, my apartment is not even big enough for one copy.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
Very excited about this MT. Missed the latest local one, but in for this!!
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
I'll likely join in this too.

Hmmm... wonder if there's any interest in Dominion: Alchemy, new in shrink...
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
huber wrote:
I'll likely join in this too.


Me three.

I have waaaaayyy too much accumulating that needs to be in hands that will play it.

I keep saying I'm going to downsize doing 3 for 1 trades and not buy anymore. Every now and then I do the former, but the latter.... shake I give up on the latter claim.


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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
JeffyJeff wrote:
One of the last MT's that allowed GG arbitrage it's exactly what happened... going back and editing the want lists to remove the arbitrage case Joe would have got the larger GG amount and someone who got no trades would have had a trade (one more real item trading).

Also for what it's worth doing a little digging the Oktoberfest 2007 MT allowed GG arbitrage... Chris O. back tested and edited the wants to get rid of any cases of arbitrage (20 cases of it happened in official results) and found eight (8) real trades had been displaced.

Even ignoring the issue of whether it's fair to allow legal skimming in math trades, if the intent of a math trade is to have real trades, then having real trades displaced so some folks can receive geek gold via arbitrage is a real issue.
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
shieldwolf wrote:
Gift certificate and GG arbitrage are NOT allowed.

Just out of curiosity why is this not allowed? I know it's pretty much a standard rule, but I'm just not sure I understand the problem behind it.


My opinion on arbitrage:

http://boardgamegeek.com/article/3251937#3251937
 
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
I'm looking forward to another math trade. The last one worked out well for me.
 
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Re: The Tax Man Cometh - an unrestricted math trade - Discussion Thread
well back on topic... another age old question... since the rules are set, discussion thread started, why not just open up the geeklist for offerings now Or is someone planning a 3 day MT from now until tax day?
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