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Dominion: Alchemy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Remodel/Upgrade with Potions. rss

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Andy Latto
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Suppose I remodel a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. What can I gain? Cards that cost up to 5 coins? Cards that cost up to 5 coins and a potion?

Suppose I upgrade a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. Can I only upgrade to a card that costs 4 coins? Only a card that costs 4 coins and a potion? Either?
 
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Cyrus the Great
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Remodel says 2 more, so you could upgrade a 5C1P to a 6 or 7C no problem. I don't think you'll be able to upgrade a 3C to a 5C1P, because the 5C1P costs an additional 1P.
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Chris Hawks
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As of Alchemy, card costs are now made up of two different resources: coins and potions. All cards released prior to Alchemy have an implied potion cost of 0.

Remodel only allows you to exceed the coin cost, so you cannot gain a card with a higher potion cost (though you could certainly take a card with a lower potion cost).
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Jeff Wolfe
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andylatto wrote:
Suppose I remodel a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. What can I gain? Cards that cost up to 5 coins? Cards that cost up to 5 coins and a potion?

Remodel says "...up to (2 Coins) more...." So, you can gain anything P+5 or less, which includes the option to gain a card that costs less than one potion and/or less than 5 coins.

Quote:
Suppose I upgrade a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. Can I only upgrade to a card that costs 4 coins? Only a card that costs 4 coins and a potion? Either?

Upgrade says "...exactly (1 Coin) more...." So, you can gain anything that costs exactly P+4. If a card costing exactly P+4 is not available in the supply, you gain nothing.
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Vince Lupo
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andylatto wrote:
Suppose I remodel a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. What can I gain? Cards that cost up to 5 coins? Cards that cost up to 5 coins and a potion?

Suppose I upgrade a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. Can I only upgrade to a card that costs 4 coins? Only a card that costs 4 coins and a potion? Either?


How about Salvager?

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/seaside/salvager.jpg


My guess is that if you trash an alchemy card (one that requires a potion to buy) you would only get the coin value from it. But the coin on the card could also refer to "treasure", which would mean "coins and potions and other treasure".
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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Neo42 wrote:
andylatto wrote:
Suppose I remodel a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. What can I gain? Cards that cost up to 5 coins? Cards that cost up to 5 coins and a potion?

Suppose I upgrade a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. Can I only upgrade to a card that costs 4 coins? Only a card that costs 4 coins and a potion? Either?


How about Salvager?

http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/seaside/salvager.jpg


My guess is that if you trash an alchemy card (one that requires a potion to buy) you would only get the coin value from it. But the coin on the card could also refer to "treasure", which would mean "coins and potions and other treasure".


The coin means coins. You don't get anything for the cost in Potions.
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Whitney Barnes

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jeffwolfe wrote:
andylatto wrote:
Suppose I remodel a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. What can I gain? Cards that cost up to 5 coins? Cards that cost up to 5 coins and a potion?

Remodel says "...up to (2 Coins) more...." So, you can gain anything P+5 or less, which includes the option to gain a card that costs less than one potion and/or less than 5 coins.

Quote:
Suppose I upgrade a card that costs 3 coins and a potion. Can I only upgrade to a card that costs 4 coins? Only a card that costs 4 coins and a potion? Either?

Upgrade says "...exactly (1 Coin) more...." So, you can gain anything that costs exactly P+4. If a card costing exactly P+4 is not available in the supply, you gain nothing.


So in that vein (and I did look around before asking this, I don't see anything explicit all in one place yet):

Feast, University, Smuggler, Ironworks and Workshop can't gain cards with potion costs, right? Because they all say "Gain a card costing up to X coins", with an implied "and costing 0 potions". Nothing but a Philosopher's Stone can be Mined into a Philosopher's Stone, for the same reason.

Swindler and Upgrade require that the replacement card have the same potion cost as the trashed card. Remodel and Sabatour allow a trashed card of potion cost 1 to be replaced with a card of potion cost 0, but you can't replace a card of potion cost 0 with a card of potion cost 1.

Is all that right?
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Jeff Wolfe
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swbarnes2 wrote:
So in that vein (and I did look around before asking this, I don't see anything explicit all in one place yet):

Feast, University, Smuggler, Ironworks and Workshop can't gain cards with potion costs, right? Because they all say "Gain a card costing up to X coins", with an implied "and costing 0 potions". Nothing but a Philosopher's Stone can be Mined into a Philosopher's Stone, for the same reason.

Swindler and Upgrade require that the replacement card have the same potion cost as the trashed card. Remodel and Sabatour allow a trashed card of potion cost 1 to be replaced with a card of potion cost 0, but you can't replace a card of potion cost 0 with a card of potion cost 1.

Is all that right?

Yes, except that if another Treasure with Potion in its cost is ever released, the answer to your Philosopher's Stone question might change.
 
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Tim Baldwin
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jeffwolfe wrote:
swbarnes2 wrote:
So in that vein (and I did look around before asking this, I don't see anything explicit all in one place yet):

Feast, University, Smuggler, Ironworks and Workshop can't gain cards with potion costs, right? Because they all say "Gain a card costing up to X coins", with an implied "and costing 0 potions". Nothing but a Philosopher's Stone can be Mined into a Philosopher's Stone, for the same reason.

Swindler and Upgrade require that the replacement card have the same potion cost as the trashed card. Remodel and Sabatour allow a trashed card of potion cost 1 to be replaced with a card of potion cost 0, but you can't replace a card of potion cost 0 with a card of potion cost 1.

Is all that right?

Yes, except that if another Treasure with Potion in its cost is ever released, the answer to your Philosopher's Stone question might change.


Except the percentage of that happening with official sets is close to 0%. It may change after 2012, but at this point DXV has said Potions are an Alchemy only card at this point.

There is still the possibility of fan cards with potion costs, though I hope people play a lot of Alchemy first before adding potion costs into new cards.
 
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Scott Heise
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How will Upgrade work with potions?

I doubt most games being played with Alchemy will have a card that costs exactly 1 more coin AND costs 1 potion. This would make most cards with a potion cost un-upgradable.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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HomerJr wrote:
How will Upgrade work with potions?

I doubt most games being played with Alchemy will have a card that costs exactly 1 more coin AND costs 1 potion. This would make most cards with a potion cost un-upgradable.

Aside from the actual mechanics, which are discussed above, the opportunity to Upgrade cards with Potion in their cost is a bit limited. Still, there are P2s that can be readily upgraded to P3s that can be readily upgraded to P4s. You would need something like Bridge to Upgrade the P0s to P2s. It would take lots of Bridges to Upgrade something to Possession (P6).

Even so, the recommendation is to use 3-5 Alchemy cards, so there will usually be plenty of non-Potion cards for Upgrade. Plus, you always have Estate->Silver, Duchy->Gold, Upgrade->Gold, and Curse->(nothing), at least until one of those money piles is drained.

ETA: I forgot two of the best uses for Upgrade when Potions are in play: Silver->Potion and Potion->Duchy.
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Derrek McNab
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So you can't Swindler someone's Vineyard for a Curse
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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kerred wrote:
So you can't Swindler someone's Vineyard for a Curse

No, Swindler has no way of creating a Potion out of thin air.
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Jorge
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Salt-Man Z wrote:
As of Alchemy, card costs are now made up of two different resources: coins and potions. All cards released prior to Alchemy have an implied potion cost of 0.

Remodel only allows you to exceed the coin cost, so you cannot gain a card with a higher potion cost (though you could certainly take a card with a lower potion cost).


So, to sum up, a 2 coin + 1 potion card (e.g., Scrying Pool) can be remodeled into a:

1) 4 coin + 1 potion card. (e.g., Golem)
2) 4 coin card. (e.g., Smithy)
3) In general: X coin + Y potion card, with X ≤ 4 and Y ≤ 1.

With upgrade, a 2 coin + 1 potion card can be upgraded to a card costing exactly 3 coins + 1 potion.

That's my understanding based on the cards' texts and the rules.
Is it correct?
 
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James Newton
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Picon wrote:
Salt-Man Z wrote:
As of Alchemy, card costs are now made up of two different resources: coins and potions. All cards released prior to Alchemy have an implied potion cost of 0.

Remodel only allows you to exceed the coin cost, so you cannot gain a card with a higher potion cost (though you could certainly take a card with a lower potion cost).


So, to sum up, a 2 coin + 1 potion card (e.g., Scrying Pool) can be remodeled into a:

1) 4 coin + 1 potion card. (e.g., Golem)
2) 4 coin card. (e.g., Smithy)
3) In general: X coin + Y potion card, with X ≤ 4 and Y ≤ 1.

With upgrade, a 2 coin + 1 potion card can be upgraded to a card costing exactly 3 coins + 1 potion.

That's my understanding based on the cards' texts and the rules.
Is it correct?

That is all correct.

And just to be clear, if you play Upgrade and trash such a card, and there is no card costing exactly 3 coins + 1 potion in the supply then the card is still trashed but you gain nothing.
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