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Subject: question about the minotaur rss

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nicolas de saint aubain
Belgium
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Last turn...

One player with a metropolis attacks an island with a building that would allow him to build a second metropolis.

he's got 2 armies. the defender has only got the minotoaur (no troops).
2 vs 2.

dice roll: draw

the :minotaur card says that he should removed if he loses the battle. it's a draw. what happens ?

Is the minotaur removed (even if the defender doesn't lose) ? or does the attacking player loses one troop and the minotaur stays, for another roll at +2def/+1att

thanks.
 
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Roman Serebryakov
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nicodsa wrote:
Last turn...

One player with a metropolis attacks an island with a building that would allow him to build a second metropolis.

he's got 2 armies. the defender has only got the minotoaur (no troops).
2 vs 2.

dice roll: draw

the :minotaur card says that he should removed if he loses the battle. it's a draw. what happens ?

Is the minotaur removed (even if the defender doesn't lose) ? or does the attacking player loses one troop and the minotaur stays, for another roll at +2def/+1att

thanks.


If I understand the rules corretcly, you cannot have Minotaur oh his own having a battle. You have to have at least 1 troop with him during the battle. It is not necessary to have a troop with him during the game BUT only during the battle, because he cannot fight without the support, you automatically lose him.

Also, you cannot attack the island that doesn't end the game. In your case, you are attacking the island using Ares, if you capture the island, you still weill need one extra turn to build, which is against the rule to attack the only island of the opponent. Basically, the only way to attack someone's last island is for him to have metropolis there Already and for you to have 1 already, also.

Hope thats right
 
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Iron James Rackham
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orange_wacko wrote:

If I understand the rules corretcly, you cannot have Minotaur oh his own having a battle. You have to have at least 1 troop with him during the battle. It is not necessary to have a troop with him during the game BUT only during the battle, because he cannot fight without the support, you automatically lose him.

Sure he can. At least there's nothing in the rules that says he cant:

The Minotaur counts as 2 Troops to protect the isle
where he is present. The Minotaur does not retreat.
During a battle, a player’s Troops must be eliminated
before the Minotaur. When the Minotaur is the only one
left, it is discarded if the defender loses another battle.


My interpretation is that if the roll is a draw, the attacker loses 1 troop, the Minotaur dies and the attacker takes the island.

orange_wacko wrote:
Also, you cannot attack the island that doesn't end the game. In your case, you are attacking the island using Ares, if you capture the island, you still weill need one extra turn to build, which is against the rule to attack the only island of the opponent. Basically, the only way to attack someone's last island is for him to have metropolis there Already and for you to have 1 already, also.

Hope thats right


The OP didn't say it was the defenders last island. Even if it was, I think he meant that it contained the 4th building that the attacker was lacking, and if so he's allowed to attack, since the metropolis is then built instantly and doesn't require an additional turn.
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Roman Serebryakov
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Okay I didnt really pay attention that he said it was the last building he needed and it wasnt the last island. OOps wow Anyways, just another reason to clarify and remind some rules, never hurts.
 
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Benoît Delcorps
Belgium
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ironJames wrote:
My interpretation is that if the roll is a draw, the attacker loses 1 troop, the Minotaur dies and the attacker takes the island.


I was the victim of this attack, and thus the owner of the Minotaur.

IMHO,the English rules are unclear about the power of this creature. And for the record, we also had the Dutch version of the player aid, where the power is explained quite differently.

In the English rules, you read that the Minotaur is removed from the board if it is alone and looses a battle.
Is a draw considered as a lost battle for the Minotaur ? One could reasonably argue that a draw is not a lost battle, so the Minotaur should stay and defend.
BTW, the Dutch version of the player aid says the Minotaur has to be defeated twice before beeing removed from the board... and we had lost the French version of the played aid which describes the creatures powers : is it available anywhere online?

Edit : As Iron James guessed, it was my last island, containing buildings that completed a series of four allowing my opponent to build his second metropolis...so the attack certainly was legal... we just had problems with the Minotaur power interpretation.
Maybe Bruno could help us with thisone ?
 
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Iron James Rackham
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I'm sure he will pitch in soon enough. He's been very good at answering questions about the game so far.
 
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Inno Van
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The English text relating to the Minotaur is:

"The Minotaur counts as 2 Troops to protect the isle
where he is present. The Minotaur does not retreat.
During a battle, a player’s Troops must be eliminated
before the Minotaur. When the Minotaur is the only one
left, it is discarded if the defender loses another battle."

1) Each player has a total of 8 troops to deploy. So the Minotaur counting as 2 troops is actually a big deal.

2) The text says "loses". Based on this, if the result is a tie or loss, if you have one or more troops with the Minotaur, you lose 1 troop. Once you're reduced to only the Minotaur, while you discard it if you lose, you don't discard the Minotaur when there are ties, only the other side loses a troop. Seems fair since you discard the Minotaur at the beginning of your next God phase anyway.

3) The translation using the word "defender" is a bit confusing and could imply that we can only place the Minotaur on islands we already own, to only defend. Since we can "place the figurine on the isle of your choice" it actually seems we can also place the Minotaur immediately on another island to attack another player. And since he "counts as 2 troops" it would make sense that he can also be moved on attacks like other troops, either by Ares or by Pegasus.

 
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Benoît Delcorps
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Thanks Innovan for your interpretation of the rules.

I still would like this to be confirmed by the game's designer because i think the english rule is ne totally clear.


 
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Iron James Rackham
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Agreed. Try geekmail?
 
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bruno cathala
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hi everybody

excuse me for this late answer, but it seems that i missed this topic....

so..rule says:

The Minotaur counts as 2 Troops to protect the isle
where he is present. The Minotaur does not retreat.
During a battle, a player’s Troops must be eliminated
before the Minotaur. When the Minotaur is the only one
left, it is discarded if the defender loses another battle.

That means that, during fight, player has to first eliminate troops. When he has no more troops and has to eliminate one more, then he looses the minotaur.

In you example, in case of a draw, both attacker and defender have to loose one troup. >> that means that the defender losses the minotaur (he has no more troops to eliminate) and attacker take the island !

but i agree that the text could be confusing.. sorry for that !
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Benoît Delcorps
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Thanks for you clarification, Bruno
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nicolas de saint aubain
Belgium
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arg... that means we truly lost that game. Anyway he won't know it as he doesn't read BGG forums yuk
 
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Number Eight
China
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Sorry for my slowness, but if the Minotaur counts as 2 troops, however you lose him on a tie or loss if he is alone, how does he count as 2 troops?

I understand that if I have 1 troop + the minotaur I should have to have a combination of 3 losses or ties to lose the island, but from Bruno's explanation the first loss/tie would remove my troop, now leaving the minotaur alone, thus allowing the next loss/tie to remove the minotaur, so in effect the minotaur only added 1 troop to the island's defense.

Did I miss something?
 
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Andy W
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thelonliestmonk wrote:
Sorry for my slowness, but if the Minotaur counts as 2 troops, however you lose him on a tie or loss if he is alone, how does he count as 2 troops?

I understand that if I have 1 troop + the minotaur I should have to have a combination of 3 losses or ties to lose the island, but from Bruno's explanation the first loss/tie would remove my troop, now leaving the minotaur alone, thus allowing the next loss/tie to remove the minotaur, so in effect the minotaur only added 1 troop to the island's defense.

Did I miss something?


I can see what you're saying here, but I would suggest looking at it from a different angle.

When adding up the combat value of your island, you add:

number of troops + die roll (+ any defender bonus from fortresses)

The minotaur has already added a value of 2 to your combat result. If the minotaur is alone on the island and draws/loses, the attacking army has shown their force is able to overcome the minotaur's superior fighting strength, and thus defeats it.

The minotaur counting as 2 troops is for determining the combat value, not necessarily for counting the physical number of troops on the island. If it were that, the minotaur card would likely say "add two troops to your island" instead of the one figure.
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Number Eight
China
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Thanks much, that clears it up...
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Filip Carlan
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two slighly different questions also regarding the minotaur:

1. if I attack with 1 soldier an island that has 1 soldier + the minotaur and the result of the attack is draw, both soldiers are taken out, does the minotaur remain in place all alone to defend against a second possible attack on the same turn?
2. when it is placed on an enemy island beside only 1 enemy soldier, if I use the Harpy to remove that soldier does the minotaur get taken away immediately because of my previous question or because there was a second creature that acted on the same island?
 
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fcarlan wrote:
two slighly different questions also regarding the minotaur:

1. if I attack with 1 soldier an island that has 1 soldier + the minotaur and the result of the attack is draw, both soldiers are taken out, does the minotaur remain in place all alone to defend against a second possible attack on the same turn?
2. when it is placed on an enemy island beside only 1 enemy soldier, if I use the Harpy to remove that soldier does the minotaur get taken away immediately because of my previous question or because there was a second creature that acted on the same island?


1) I am certain that the Minotaur does stay on the island and still defends against attacks.

2) This I am not so sure about, but my guess is that the Harpy has no effect on the Minotaur, for two reasons. One, the Minotaur is not a soldier itself, so the Harpy's power wouldn't affect it. Two, the Harpy acting on that island still wouldn't remove it since only the two creatures that have a miniature will remove each other immediately. So the only creatures that remove each other are the Minotaur, Medusa, Chiron, and Polyphemus. The Harpy has no more power to destroy a creature for acting on an island than, say, the Cyclops for changing a building on an island.
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Andy W
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fcarlan wrote:
two slighly different questions also regarding the minotaur:

1. if I attack with 1 soldier an island that has 1 soldier + the minotaur and the result of the attack is draw, both soldiers are taken out, does the minotaur remain in place all alone to defend against a second possible attack on the same turn?
2. when it is placed on an enemy island beside only 1 enemy soldier, if I use the Harpy to remove that soldier does the minotaur get taken away immediately because of my previous question or because there was a second creature that acted on the same island?



1) I don't believe there is any requirement that the controlling player needs to have any troops on an island to keep the minotaur, so the minotaur should remain after the attack you describe.

2) The minotaur should remain on the island. The minotaur stays even if the troop is removed (as in #1), and the harpy does not impact the minotaur. The minotaur is only removed due to two creatures being on the island if one of the other creatures with a figure (ie. Chiron, Medusa, or Polyphemus) is on the island.
 
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