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Subject: office cards-both open knowledge face up? rss

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NICK WATKINS
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can anyone comment as to whether or not the two office cards(for each round) are open knowledge?
the rule book pg 2 says"shuffle the 24 office cards.Next place them in SETS of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board"
the picture shows the sets of cards with the top card open and then teh second card slightly tilted underneath.
one group of friends played both cards open while another group played it with only the first card showing.

not sure how you can determine either way or what the intent of the game designers were.
its certainly easier if you -know- what the next two are-
as well as being able to see all the office cards throughout the game
(as this stays the same in every game -just different order)

ideas?
how does everyone else play this-both open or only one?

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Steve Duff
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I think the entire point of showing them overlapping was to show that you could see the card underneath if you wanted.

Otherwise, they'd have said one card face down, one card face up.
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Craig Liken
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Definitely face-up. If you have enough space don't even overlap them.

They need to be face-up to allow some planning in the game. A few people complain about lack of ability to plan in this game as it is (I don't agree though), but if you had both Office cards face down (or even one of them) it would become a total crap-shoot.
 
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Corin A. Friesen
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It's face up. The game would stink if both weren't.
 
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Ethan Larson
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Ambrose wrote:
It's face up. The game would stink if both weren't.


I dunno. I've played 4 games with stacks of 2, so effectively one face up, one face down. I still like the game. I just don't see anything in the rules indicating you can see both. Even the image has the bottom one overlapped so you can't see it.
 
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Steve Duff
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rules wrote:
Place them in sets of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board"


"Each face up" is unmistakable.

The game is hard enough to plan for without hiding half your info.
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Dan Schaeffer
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
rules wrote:
Place them in sets of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board"


"Each face up" is unmistakable.

The game is hard enough to plan for without hiding half your info.


I think you've emphasized the words incorrectly. It more naturally reads:

rules wrote:
Place them in sets of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board"


I agree with your conclusion, and that there's no ambiguity in the rules (though commas around "in sets of two cards each" might have been nice), but I don't think it parses the way you did it.
 
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Steve Duff
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"Sets of two cards" is a complete thought and proper grammar.

"Sets of two cards each" is redundant. A set is a grouping, each is grouping. Each adds nothing to that part that isn't already stated, a sign that it's being read incorrectly.

It also leads directly to the question posed here, now that "each" has been stolen from its proper section, we have the words "face up" applying to two items, and become unclear which item or both is it referring to.

Yes, commas would be best, but no one uses them or hyphens any more.

"Place them in sets of two cards, each face up, next to the long sides of the game board"
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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I don't want to get into a grammar war over this. Even if "each" is redundant, that doesn't make it ungrammatical or an unnatural/incorrect reading of the rule.

Here's an alternative comma placement to yours:

"Place them in sets, of two cards each, face up next to the long sides of the game board"

or even (again with the perhaps-redundant "each"):

"Place them, in sets of two cards each, face up next to the long sides of the game board"
 
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Ethan Larson
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It's totally not clear in the rules. You can have them covered as I do, and you have "sets of two" that are "each face up." You can have them all visible, and have "sets of" "two that are each face up".

If the picture in the manual depicted them clearly showing both cards, then I'd do that. But the picture shows the top card covering 95% of the bottom card.

So I go by the pic.
 
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Chris Dorrell
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Purely my personal opinion but I think that the designer would have said "one face up and one face down" if the intention was to hide any information. I believe the intention is that players should be able to see the faces of all of the Office cards that are available in forthcoming rounds.

Don't forget the bit at the very end of the rules that says "It is important to remember that the rules are intended to be read and followed with reason and normalcy".

I'd recommend just getting on and playing this excellent game and not get too bogged down in rules debates.



 
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Dan Schaeffer
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Try this: Read the rule again, but pretend there is no illustration.

"Shuffle the 24 office cards. Next place them in sets of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board."

Now, with no picture to guide you, how do you set up the office cards at the beginning of the game? What's the most natural result? In my view, wherever you place the hypothetical commas, the cards in every pair are both face up next to the board.
 
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Ethan Larson
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Golux13 wrote:
Try this: Read the rule again, but pretend there is no illustration.

"Shuffle the 24 office cards. Next place them in sets of two cards each face up next to the long sides of the game board."

Now, with no picture to guide you, how do you set up the office cards at the beginning of the game? What's the most natural result? In my view, wherever you place the hypothetical commas, the cards in every pair are both face up next to the board.


I will quote myself:

almo2001 wrote:
It's totally not clear in the rules. You can have them covered as I do, and you have "sets of two" that are "each face up." You can have them all visible, and have "sets of" "two that are each face up".


I find the game very playable with my interpretation, so it's not that big a deal to me. I just want to know what Feld meant.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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Simply reading the rules as quoted, without a picture or anything to look at, why would you set it up with any of the cards covered up? I can't see how you can read that sentence and think "Oh, that means only one card in each set should be visible."
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Dave G
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almo2001 wrote:

It's totally not clear in the rules. You can have them covered as I do, and you have "sets of two" that are "each face up." You can have them all visible, and have "sets of" "two that are each face up".

I find the game very playable with my interpretation, so it's not that big a deal to me. I just want to know what Feld meant.


I'm afraid I see zero difference between "sets of two" that are "each face up" and "sets of" "two that are each face up." I mean, I get that you think there's a distinction. I just don't understand why you think so. If I were to read that in either distinct sense you've presented here I would still reach the conclusion that both cards should be face up. Saying "each face up" instead of "two that are each face up" doesn't change the basic understanding that the cards are face up. Does it?
 
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Ethan Larson
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A set of two can be face up with the second card hidden.
 
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Lacombe
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Although you can interpret "sets of two cards each face up" to mean "sets of two cards stacked face up on top of each other with only the top card showing", there's no way you would have written "sets of two cards each face up" if what you meant was "sets of two cards stacked face up on top of each other with only the top card showing"
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Dave G
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almo2001 wrote:
A set of two can be face up with the second card hidden.


I guess. That seems like a reach, though.
 
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Ethan Larson
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Each set face up. Seems simple to me.
 
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Lacombe
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almo2001 wrote:
Each set face up. Seems simple to me.


If you were told to "deal each player a hand of seven cards face-up" what would you do?

 
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Ethan Larson
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NateStraight wrote:
almo2001 wrote:
Each set face up. Seems simple to me.


If you were told to "deal each player a hand of seven cards face-up" what would you do?



I already know how "hands" of cards work. And you're forgetting the picture in the manual which adds to the ambiguity.
 
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Steve Duff
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almo2001 wrote:
I already know how "hands" of cards work. And you're forgetting the picture in the manual which adds to the ambiguity.


Ok, then change it to "deal sets of seven cards each face up". Exact wording as Macao. Add a picture where you could see the top card of the seven face up.

Would *anyone* argue for six face down and one face up?
 
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Dave G
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UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
almo2001 wrote:
I already know how "hands" of cards work. And you're forgetting the picture in the manual which adds to the ambiguity.


Ok, then change it to "deal sets of seven cards each face up". Exact wording as Macao. Add a picture where you could see the top card of the seven face up.

Would *anyone* argue for six face down and one face up?


Apparently so.
 
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Lacombe
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From the links section:

This video, claimed to be an interview with the designer [I can't verify either since I don't speak German and don't know what Feld looks like], shows all of the office cards face-up.

It's even more obvious, because the cards are sized in the video [and the same sizing applied to the published game, as I recall] to fit two side-by-side under the spots allocated for each round.

If you leave both cards face-up and don't stack them at all, but leave them side-by-side, they fit perfectly across the length of the board [two cards in each little "bin", and 12 cards to a side].
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Michael Klein
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The german rules are clear on this point: both cards are face up.
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