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Race for the Galaxy: Rebel vs Imperium» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Strength level of the RvI homeworlds for 2 player advanced rss

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Alex Rockwell
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After playing a fair amount of 2PA RvI in person and online, here are my thoughts on the Homeworlds from the set:


IMPERIUM Warlord:
2pts, +1 Look, +1 Military, +1 Additional REBEL Military.

Imperium Warlord falls halfway between Separatist Colony and New Sparta, but with extra scoring potential than either.

It is worse at settling 2 cost windfalls than New Sparta, so you cant get the Uplift world or Alien Robot Sentry starts. You can still get a wide variety of blue or brown windfall worlds, including a couple Rebel 2s. This makes a Settle/Trade less likely than for New Sparta.

The upside is that Imperium Warlord scores well with various Imperium 6 buildings, and has equal ability to settle the big Rebel worlds (though not the big Aliens), and the explore power helps find windfall worlds and military worlds/developments.

Common starting picks:
Explore/Develop, Explore/Settle, Settle/Trade.

Overall rating: Average or just below average power, High scoring potential.

Playing against Imperium Warlord:
Your opponent probably isnt going to do anything really shocking or worrisome, and there is a good chance they will explore, so you can often count on them to give you a card if you want to build something big. I wouldnt be too scared about picking settle against them, thought there is a good chance they will get something free.


REBEL Cantina:
0 pts, Play non-Alien military world as non-military, Produce 1 card per Rebel world (including itself).

Rebel Cantina is quite unique and thrives with Rebel worlds fueling big card produces. It has a contact specialist power without the discount, givign it access to a lot of early windfall worlds. It also can pay for big Rebel worlds with cards, providing another scoring alternative (and effects like Colony ship can be very strong).

Rebel Cantina really needs to add Rebel worlds to be effective, but it is incredibly effective with them. With a Rebel windfall world added, Rebel Cantina can Trade/Produce for huge amounts of cards very quick. It is pretty important to set up some sort of consume power against them. Letting them choose produce for 2+ cards while getting nothing from it is pretty disastrous.

I find that things generally go really well or really poorly for Rebel Cantina, depending on if you draw Rebels.

Common starting picks:
There are a wide variety, depending on what is in the player's hand. They likely explore for a Rebel if they dont have a cheap one, and likely Produce against someone without a starting production world. Trade/Produce with a rebel windfall in hand against someone who picks settle is an insane beating, so they might try this. Settle/Produce or Settle/Trade, aiming for Trade/Produce the next turn are also likely.
Chance of developing is lower due to the strength of all the other options. Likely combos:

Explore/Produce (gather cards/rebel search)
Settle/Trade or Settle Produce (play rebel and gather cards)
Trade/Produce (hope to get a huge jump if you settle.


Overall Rating:
High Variance. Varies from weak to quite powerful based on draw. Low scoring potential (0 pts and its not military, so it doesnt score on Rebel MILITARY scoring 6s).

Playing against Rebel Cantina:
I would not pick settle early against Rebel Cantina unless you have something awesome. Try to get a good world to settle that can take advantage of the Produce phase. Developing probably doesnt help Rebel Cantina much early. As an alternative, if you have multiple cheap worlds that produce, you could call double settle. Your opponent probably can only use one settle right away, unless they got lucky. If they do drop acouple rebels then dont produce, just trade your goods effectively when they produce.



Galactic Developers:
1 point, Draw on Develop, Consume any for 1pt.

I feel that Galactic Developers might be too strong in 2 player advanced, it can lead to many blowouts if you have another develop power in your hand (especially Interstellar Bank). You can often 2xDevelop and Explore/Develop your way through almost every turn of the game, and Tableau rush the opponent very effectively. It is pretty critical for your opponent to get develop powers themself to block you.
Without develop powers its can be a bit weak, but much more often it ends up beign a monster. It can also pop out a 6 building and hold 1 card on turn 1, with Explore+1/+1 Develop. (Dropping Pan Galactic Research or Galactic Federation is probably already game over!). Exploring and getting 6 developments is an important part of playing Galactic Developers. You dont want to run out of developments.

You will generally pick Explore/Develop, 2xDevelop, or Develop/Trade each turn. A Trade strategy is strong for you, as it provides cardflow to find 6s and afford them. Discard for point powers like Deficit Spending are very strogn as well.

Galactic Developers is extremely likely to Explore/Develop or Developx2 on the first turn. Predictability is the weakness of Galacatic Developers, so use it, because you need all the help you can get.

Heavy settling early on is often your best bet to stop your opponent. Dont feel pressured to build something in their develop phases if you cant afford it, you will have more develop phases in the future. Do drop and develop discount/draw powers you get as soon as possible to block your opponent.


Common Startign Picks:
Explore/Develop or 2xDevelop with high probability.
Develop/Trade with a windfall is a good trick, and can drop the military development needed to play a military windfall.


Overall Rating:
Strongest Homeworld, in my opinion. High chance of powerful games or blowouts, insanely good if you have other development discount powers.
Only weak if you dont get helpful developments early.


Playing against Galactic Developers:
Feel free to settle against Galactic Developers, early and often. The settle phase is a big weapon against them (if they dont drop military powers), and you want to set up a good engine fast, since they can easily tableau rush you out.

They still might play a 'naked' trade against you if they expect this, but its probably less likely than against many other worlds. As long as your world is helpful, its probably worth it. Settle/Trade is a good start, as you can afford to build something good in their turn 2 develop phase.

If you really need a -1 Discount on a development on turn 1 to play something, its probably ok to just pick develop. They were very likely going to anyway, so you are not likely to give them a card they wouldnt have received already. This can be better than explore as a way to get one more card, as you dont let them look at extra cards to find more developments.



My ranking of all Homeworlds for RvI 2 player advanced play
(with get 2 choose 1 starting worlds). Note, this rating is a general guide to the strengths of the worlds for an 'Average' experienced player. (Someone with plenty of experience with the game, but not necessarily an absolute top player. Thus, a world that is easier to achieve a good result with will be ranked higher than one that might have the same potential, but requires a lot more skill to achieve that potential)

Best:
Galactic Developers (When combined with development powers, tends to lead to blowouts. A weaker player has a strong chance to beat a stronger player with a relatively simple strategy if they get these).

Tier 1:
Alpha Centauri (Still good in RvI, as always).
Ancient Race (Good and with picking a world from 2, more likely to be chosen because you had a Genetics Lab as well).
New Sparta (Still good, and probably aided by the increased military focus in RvI and additional large Military worlds. With world choice, more likely chosen because you had good military windfall or scoring world already in hand).

Tier 2:
Rebel Cantina (High Variance, generally amazing or terrible based on draws).
Damaged Alien Factory (Good cardflow source)

Tier 3:
Imperium Warlord (Good scoring potential. With world picking, more likely chosen because you had good military windfall or scoring world already in hand).
Separatist Colony (Aided by boosts to explore powers in RvI, and the increased importance of exploring to get what you need, given the large deck size). Probably improved from before RvI.
Earth's Lost Colony (Lower chance now to get broken starts with something like Alien Toy Shop. Lower chance now to be able to slam down a couple cheap production worlds early).

Tier 4:
Doomed World (Much more likely to be chosen due to having a strong expensive world, aided by the addition of Imperium Blaster Gem Consortium, and greatly aided by the new world picking rule (pick from two homeworlds). If you didnt have a good world already you picked your other world, right? (Note: Gene Developers might look good with it, but it really isnt! Unless you have a cheap non-military green windfall). This is better than it was before world picking, where when you had it you were usually get stuck with it and nothing good to drop.
Epsilon Eridani (The consume power just feels weaker now than the explore from Separatist Colony).

Tier why are you playing this?:
Old Earth (Just a terrible world. You had better start with a non-military windfall to Settle/Trade to take advantage of the power, then work on a consume engine. Thats pretty much the only chance you have). One big advantage of choosing homeworlds is that you never have to choose this. It would suck to have this and Doomed World, with no good world to drop!


Comments:
Rebel Cantina might deserve Tier 1, as youre probably going to be picking it with a Rebel card with world choosing, so its more likely to be the 'good' Rebel Cantina.

Doomed World is all about whether you have certain cards in your hand. Its strong with Lost Species Arc World, Galactic Studios, or Imperium Blaster Gem Consortium. Its weak with basically anything else. Youre probably picking it because you had one of those three. So the times you actually pick it its probably pretty good. Its just very rare that thats possible, so usually it wastes one of your two world options.

World choosing increases the power level overall, since you are more likely to have a Homeworld that synergizes with your hand. This means that you need a stronger start to achieve the same results. This makes worlds that tend to lead to versatile but average starts worse than before (like Epsilon Eridani). Having a high chance to do something okay isnt very good anymore. You often need to do something quite good to keep up, since your opponent's homeworld should match his hand pretty well. World choosing generally improves high variance worlds like New Sparta, Rebel Cantina, Doomed World, and weakens low variance worlds like Earth's Lost Colony, Epsilon Eridani that are generally somewhat helpful but not awesome.
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Alex Chen
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Good stuff, as always!

I find Galactic Studios and New Earth to both be good enough to pick Doomed World, assuming I don't have a better plan with my other starting world. They're not windmill slams like LSAW, but they're both decent starts to a p/c engine. Alien Rosetta Stone + not-too-expensive Alien Windfall is also pretty good, because it's pretty unlikely that your opponent is ever going to be able to keep up with a double settle turn 1.

Rebel Cantina has been closer to tier 3 than tier 1 in my experience, but it's possible I just suck with the world.
 
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vivafringe wrote:
Rebel Cantina has been closer to tier 3 than tier 1 in my experience, but it's possible I just suck with the world.


It really is nice to get mucho REBEL military worlds with RC. I you get something like RC + Rebel Underground (which in itself has a draw 1 card V power) + 2 other cheap REBEL military worlds, that's 5 cards per V. Nice thing is you get the cards automatically, unlike other V powers which require you to prodoce there. You can call V as a way to help replinish your hand. Contrast to others who have to use an extra round to Trade $ for more cards.

Otherwise, it can be as weak as Alpha Centauri in not getting ANY brown worlds whatsoever.
 
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Alex Rockwell
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vivafringe wrote:
Good stuff, as always!

I find Galactic Studios and New Earth to both be good enough to pick Doomed World, assuming I don't have a better plan with my other starting world. They're not windmill slams like LSAW, but they're both decent starts to a p/c engine. Alien Rosetta Stone + not-too-expensive Alien Windfall is also pretty good, because it's pretty unlikely that your opponent is ever going to be able to keep up with a double settle turn 1.


I find both New Earth and Gene Designers to be okay, but still tend put you behind the average opponent start. But yes, that might be better than your other world. Something like Galactic Trendsetters, Tourist World, Merchant World, etc are okay but not great either.

I love Galactic Studios with it. I just realized I screwed up before and said Trendsetters instead of Studios as beign good. Studios is great. Trendsetter is just ok. You need cardflow.

Quote:

Rebel Cantina has been closer to tier 3 than tier 1 in my experience, but it's possible I just suck with the world.


Its definitely VERY feast or famine. You really need another Rebel quick and then to add on later. But when it works it blows people out. I definitely would not call it tier 1 without world-choosing, since when you play it you are probably matching it to a rebel. Alternately, its still good when matched with a good military windfall like an uplift race. This can set up a produce/trade 5 card cycle.
 
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Kester J
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I agree with most of what you write, but I think you overestimate the differences between different worlds. I'd put the homeworlds in roughly the same places (with a bit of tinkering) but probably only three tiers. I just don't think there's enough difference between them to really justify six different tiers. I'd pool your bottom three and top three tiers and rename them "Reliable" and "Less reliable", then pull out Galactic Developers and Rebel Cantina and put them in their own "High variance" group.

Specific comments:

Galactic Developers: I'm surprised to see you put Rebel Cantina as high variance, but not Galactic Developers. You're right that GD can get some blowout games, but there are only 6 develop helpers in the deck. Chances of getting one at the start is about the same as a cheap rebel world. If you don't get any, your choice is between a) pushing develop anyway, which is pretty easy for your opponent to exploit, particularly with military; or b) having a settle-heavy game, which your start world is probably one of the worst-equipped to deal with. It seems just as, if not more, variable than Rebel Cantina to me.

Old Earth: I do think you're being harsh on Old Earth: the trade power makes it at least as good as ELC, although you're right about needing a good windfall early. In 4p it's usually possible to get a production world down and leech a produce, but you have to do it all yourself in 2pa.

Doomed World: Has certainly lost something with this expansion. I think it's because the best use of it is to swap it for a P/C world in the midgame and break into an opposing P/C cycle. With P/C generally being weaker in RvI, it's less likely that your opponent will be doing that, so Doomed World loses a bit of value. Still, it was one of my favourite homeworlds in Gathering Storm, so it's only dropped to midrange - I still like it over most of the military start worlds if I have nothing obviously good in my hand. I think you're overrating the necessity of having a big world early to get good use out of it.
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Concerning play against Galactic Developers:
A first Turn Interstellar Bank (Investment credits and Public Works are nice, but not quite as good) is a fantastic play and can severely blunt their game. If you've got it, don't wait for GD to get a good development. Call develop yourself. If they plunk down Gal Fed or something, then they were going to pound you anyway.


A related but unimportant note:
I recently played a game against crushedguava in which I was GD. My starting hand was crap so I Explore+1/+1/Explore+5. I found Interstellar Bank and Galactic Bankers. Obviously I threw them both down as soon as I could and then chose Develop/Develop for the rest of the game. BUT, I really struggled. Despite 6 cards of income, the -1 discount for choosing the phase, playing a strategy that's extremely difficult to draft I barely won. I couldn't find any of the other develop helpers and very few cards that allowed me to leech his settles. But, as he said, it shows how powerful the Develop strat is that despite having a terrible follow up, with the nightmare develop start, I still did win.
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Kester wrote:
I agree with most of what you write, but I think you overestimate the differences between different worlds. I'd put the homeworlds in roughly the same places (with a bit of tinkering) but probably only three tiers. I just don't think there's enough difference between them to really justify six different tiers. I'd pool your bottom three and top three tiers and rename them "Reliable" and "Less reliable", then pull out Galactic Developers and Rebel Cantina and put them in their own "High variance" group.


Yes, its certainly true that my tier 2-4 are not really all that far apart, and would all be pretty close points on a power graph.

Galactic developers is also high variance, its true. But I think the range runs from 'decent', to 'very strong' to 'blowout', centered around being very strong. Rebel cantina goes from terrible to awesome.

Quote:

Specific comments:

Galactic Developers: I'm surprised to see you put Rebel Cantina as high variance, but not Galactic Developers. You're right that GD can get some blowout games, but there are only 6 develop helpers in the deck. Chances of getting one at the start is about the same as a cheap rebel world. If you don't get any, your choice is between a) pushing develop anyway, which is pretty easy for your opponent to exploit, particularly with military; or b) having a settle-heavy game, which your start world is probably one of the worst-equipped to deal with. It seems just as, if not more, variable than Rebel Cantina to me.


For develop discount powers, there are:
2 Interstellar Bank
2 Public Works
2 Investment Credits
1 Galactic Federation
1 Galactic Bankers
1 Pan Galactic Research

All the 6s can be played on turn 1 with an Explore/Develop, while holding onto one card.

Unless I already had two great and cheap developments in hand, I generally explore/develop on turn 1. So really I am looking for one of 9 cards, and I am seeing 6(start)+3(explore)+1(develop draw) cards, to find the card. Thats a pretty good chance.

But thats not the only reason its so good. Its great because of two more factors:

1) Its very hard for your opponent to consistenly use the quantity of develops that you can throw out there.
2) Developments can leech well on any phase, if you draw something useful. In particular, its very easy to get and drop military developments, which then let you drop free cards on their settle phase and then trade. But if you draw the right thing you can leech the others too.


Its true that develop discount strategy needs to draw a couple great developments to blow you out, and this doesnt always happen. And you might get discount cards yourself to counteract it. But in the end, I think it tends to go like this:

For Galactic Developers, if you draw the right stuff, you just win, in a way thats stronger than any of the 'God Hands' of any other world. If you dont draw the right stuff, youre generally on pretty even footing, and its a game.

That compares quite favorably to most other worlds, in which drawing the synergistic cards puts you ahead but doesnt always win, and not drawing the right stuff puts you clearly behind.

Quote:

Old Earth: I do think you're being harsh on Old Earth: the trade power makes it at least as good as ELC, although you're right about needing a good windfall early. In 4p it's usually possible to get a production world down and leech a produce, but you have to do it all yourself in 2pa.


I think its only playable with a good early windfall. So often it sits there doing nothing early on. I would rather get a multiple consume power world that also generates cards, like most of the consume engines. They are necessary to a good consume engine and make Old Earth redundant.

The consume power can be an active disadvantage early on. It can eat your trade goods or constrain your role choices. Sometimes I have felt like: I would be okay if I just had NO homeworld, but now I am getting screwed by having this Old Earth around.

Also, with the trade bonus, it would be nice to try and run a 'big trade' strategy, producing once for multiple goods and then choosing trade multiple turns in a row, then using discard for points powers. But Old Earth shuts that down, it eats the rest of your goods.

I think its a clear worst world, and there is a significant gap to second worst.


Quote:

Doomed World: Has certainly lost something with this expansion. I think it's because the best use of it is to swap it for a P/C world in the midgame and break into an opposing P/C cycle. With P/C generally being weaker in RvI, it's less likely that your opponent will be doing that, so Doomed World loses a bit of value. Still, it was one of my favourite homeworlds in Gathering Storm, so it's only dropped to midrange - I still like it over most of the military start worlds if I have nothing obviously good in my hand. I think you're overrating the necessity of having a big world early to get good use out of it.


I think it gained a lot from the rule to choose your homeworld from 2. Now you only pick it with a good world. I dont think its best use is to use it midgame. Going without a useful homeworld world in the early game is pretty terrible. Midgame, card savings isnt quite as important anymore. You could probably just play the produce/consume world anyway. (If its a big good one, yeah thats decent, just not as good as having it early).

If youre looking at probability for a good start that gives you an advantage, Doomed World's probability lies in having one of three cards early. All the other homeworlds have a wider range of synergistic cards than that.
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Alex Rockwell
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TheMadVulcan wrote:
Concerning play against Galactic Developers:
A first Turn Interstellar Bank (Investment credits and Public Works are nice, but not quite as good) is a fantastic play and can severely blunt their game. If you've got it, don't wait for GD to get a good development. Call develop yourself. If they plunk down Gal Fed or something, then they were going to pound you anyway.


Yes, I would absolutely do this! I dont mind calling a develop against this world, especially early, because they almost certainly were going to also, and saving the card can be important.


Quote:

A related but unimportant note:
I recently played a game against crushedguava in which I was GD. My starting hand was crap so I Explore+1/+1/Explore+5. I found Interstellar Bank and Galactic Bankers. Obviously I threw them both down as soon as I could and then chose Develop/Develop for the rest of the game. BUT, I really struggled. Despite 6 cards of income, the -1 discount for choosing the phase, playing a strategy that's extremely difficult to draft I barely won. I couldn't find any of the other develop helpers and very few cards that allowed me to leech his settles. But, as he said, it shows how powerful the Develop strat is that despite having a terrible follow up, with the nightmare develop start, I still did win.


Yes, when it works, you can slap down pretty much any developments and do well. Which is why its so strong. An opposing Galactic Developers scares me more than any other start world. I know that I might not have a chance, no matter what I do, if they get the right stuff.

When playing it, if you dont get a second 'draw on develop' power, it can be important to do lots of explore/develop or trade/develops. You need good cardflow, not just discounts.
 
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Dave J McWeasely
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I find that the GalDev cheese games desensitize me to "normal" GalDev games. I can't just settle down and play like I have an early bank. The fact that its spelled differently messes with my head.

The Consume power is there for a reason. Early Replicant Robots and Prod strategy is quite possible. What are they going to do? Counter with a Dev strategy? Bring it!

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Rob Neuhaus
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This is pure speculation, but I think the consume power on GalDev was probably put there to weaken it a bit in multiplayer. The dev bonus is super nice, but it's even worse than Old Earth with respect to early windfall worlds, not only do you have the consumption liability, but you don't even get a trade bonus.

OTOH, I'd guess opponents are much more willing to settle against GalDev than OE, so GalDev can probably get away with blind trades more.
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Edward
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The consume power also plays a significant role in GalDev's nonhomeworld capacity: it makes it a good settle for a x2/Producer who, for whatever reason, does not need to or cannot settle a production world. It gives them both an extra consume power and a dev leech.
 
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rrenaud wrote:
This is pure speculation, but I think the consume power on GalDev was probably put there to weaken it a bit in multiplayer. The dev bonus is super nice, but it's even worse than Old Earth with respect to early windfall worlds, not only do you have the consumption liability, but you don't even get a trade bonus.


Old Earth is totally crippled until it settles on turn with no consumes (or aces the hanging trade itself). GalDev is one Bank away from having decent sustainable cardflow without ever having to call Consume.
 
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TheMadVulcan wrote:
A related but unimportant note:
I recently played a game against crushedguava in which I was GD. My starting hand was crap so I Explore+1/+1/Explore+5. I found Interstellar Bank and Galactic Bankers. Obviously I threw them both down as soon as I could and then chose Develop/Develop for the rest of the game. BUT, I really struggled. Despite 6 cards of income, the -1 discount for choosing the phase, playing a strategy that's extremely difficult to draft I barely won. I couldn't find any of the other develop helpers and very few cards that allowed me to leech his settles. But, as he said, it shows how powerful the Develop strat is that despite having a terrible follow up, with the nightmare develop start, I still did win.

The view from the other side was very different though . Here is the link for those who are interested: http://www.flexboardgames.com/games/1900

Even though you said you were really struggling, and that you barely won, at no point during the game did I feel I had a chance of catching up to you with the cards that I had in hand, and especially with no cardflow as well. I thought of going Trade/Produce to draft off your develops but then I decided not to as that would have given you at least 2 points per turn from your Galactic Bankers. And you had first pick at all the goals as well.

The cheap development-discount developments are really good, especially in pairs and in the early game (I find it impossible to keep up if the opponent has 2, unless you have a huge military with the perfect cards to settle him out). Having Galactic Developers as a start world already gives you one of the discount already, and you only need one more. Being able to set the tempo, having first pick at the goals, and being able to develop military to draft the opponent's settles, are all just too much of an advantage, especially in 2p games.
 
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I know what you mean, but from my perspective, you were always one good card away from having your way with me.

I guess it's just easy to imagine the worst case scenario. If you had hit a perfect 6-cost or two or dropped IL and gone on a power settle rampage then I would have been toast because I wasn't finding any more of the cards I really needed. I think it was Weasley's thread about Playing While Losing that has some posts about assuming the best rather than the worst. If we had both done a better job of that, then perhaps our game would have gone quite a bit differently.
 
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Pretty ironic, but after posting this my next two games featured me doing well with Old Earth. Of course, both games had about the best possible hands for it.

In the first I had Empath World, Colony Ship, and Imperium Blaster Gem Consortium in Hand, and drew a cheap blue production world off my first settle/trade. I quickly got to a 6vp and 2 card produce/consume cycle.

In the second I had Alien Toy shop. Trading that a couple times got me replicant robots, terraforming guild, 2 cost green windfall, Universal Symbionts, Galactic Genome Project, etc. I pounded down some worlds at -2 cost while draw 2 cards for them, and then VP/Produced for huge amounts.


Both these games are what Old Earth needs. It must have a non-military windfall early on to be competitive, and thats pretty restrictive.
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Alex Chen
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It's also important to note that picking Old Earth makes you incredibly predictable in the first round. Savvy players are going to make successful naked trades against you all day.
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Rob Neuhaus
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I think you overstate the dependence on OE on an early profitable windfall. I certainly agree that, given the choice of a random starting world, or a guaranteed say, OE + ATS or OE + empath world, I'd certainly take Old Earth. However, I don't think this is the only case in which I'd take OE. For example, I'd take a guaranteed OE + Gem world or mining world or comet zone over a random hand/start world, and they arguably fit better with OE than any other homeworld. Perhaps Alpha will do better with a starting MW or CZ, but no one is complaining about Alpha's lack of strength.
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TheMadVulcan wrote:
I know what you mean, but from my perspective, you were always one good card away from having your way with me.

I guess it's just easy to imagine the worst case scenario. If you had hit a perfect 6-cost or two or dropped IL and gone on a power settle rampage then I would have been toast because I wasn't finding any more of the cards I really needed. I think it was Weasley's thread about Playing While Losing that has some posts about assuming the best rather than the worst. If we had both done a better job of that, then perhaps our game would have gone quite a bit differently.

Hmm. I suppose it was because I have never lost on Genie in the games where I had 2 early develop powers (nor have I beat anyone who did that against me), which led me to the conclusion that I had very little chance of winning. Furthermore, you had 3 of the best develop powers, not just the best and public works or investment credits.

Is Rob able to pull some stats out of Genie on this? Something like winning percentages of tableaus with 2 of the 3 develop cards in the first 6 cards of the tableau.
 
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Alexfrog wrote:
Both these games are what Old Earth needs. It must have a non-military windfall early on to be competitive, and thats pretty restrictive.


Darn, if only there was some mechanic which could guarantee you getting a cheap non-military windfall at the start of the game, before any phases were called....
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crushedguava wrote:
Is Rob able to pull some stats out of Genie on this? Something like winning percentages of tableaus with 2 of the 3 develop cards in the first 6 cards of the tableau.


I could do it, but I'd be much happier if someone else did it. I'd even be willing to tutor someone through the code and expend 5x the amount of effort so that someone else would be able solve this particular problem. Because once someone else is familiar with the code/data, I could have the pleasure for reading all of their random stats posts . Having said that, I don't think it's really that hard. Maybe it would take me 20 minutes, so I'd guess someone who knew Python and had my help could easily do it in an hour.

“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”
 
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rrenaud wrote:
I could do it, but I'd be much happier if someone else did it. I'd even be willing to tutor someone through the code and expend 5x the amount of effort so that someone else would be able solve this particular problem.
[...]
“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”

While that'd be great, being realistic here - python coding and advanced statistics are two pretty specialized abilities. Finding either one is uncommon. Finding both in one person, very rare. Finding both in one person that plays RftG and surfs BGG, well, you are quite possibly unique in the world. ;)
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entranced wrote:
While that'd be great, being realistic here - python coding and advanced statistics are two pretty specialized abilities.


Adding up the winning percentage among games with a certain property isn't "advanced statistics".
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Adding up the winning percentage among games with a certain property isn't "advanced statistics".

Indeed, but i don't know if rrenaud would be satisfied feasting on goldfish.
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onigame wrote:
Alexfrog wrote:
Both these games are what Old Earth needs. It must have a non-military windfall early on to be competitive, and thats pretty restrictive.


Darn, if only there was some mechanic which could guarantee you getting a cheap non-military windfall at the start of the game, before any phases were called....


I fully expect the search mechanic to change these valuations.
 
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rrenaud wrote:
I think you overstate the dependence on OE on an early profitable windfall. I certainly agree that, given the choice of a random starting world, or a guaranteed say, OE + ATS or OE + empath world, I'd certainly take Old Earth.


Yes, I would take that as well. Its just that there are a relatively limited number of cards that combine with Old Earth to be good. Kindof like Doomed World.

Old Earth with Gem World/Mining World/etc are ok but the Windfall start is faster. I would consider those starts below average, so I would take the random world.

I'm not saying that Old Earth CANT win, just that its weaker.

From the Genie stats, we are looking at a 10% disadvantage to Old Earth versus random worlds, or so.




vivafringe wrote:
It's also important to note that picking Old Earth makes you incredibly predictable in the first round. Savvy players are going to make successful naked trades against you all day.


Yes, I would definitely expect a settle out of Old Earth.

 
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