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Subject: Deceptively complex? rss

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Dr ?
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Hello Fellow 'Geeks!

I have recently begun to delve into Battlelore once again. At this juncture, I have purchased all of the expansions. And I am struck by a simple fact. Some simple things are not explained and some are not explained well. For example, the use of creatures is explained in an unofficial document. It clears things up to be sure but is voluminous!

Additionally, when call to arms, epic and expansions come crashing together (which is what we all really want---goblin or other themed armies vs. whatever) the steps you need to take seem somewhat excessive. I have to choose these deployment decks, draw these specific cards, play these specialist cards, and then look online for clarification.

Of course I have to give some kudos for portions of the original players manual that seems to predict some of the innovations and leave room for them as well....

In conclusion, the fans seem to have filled the gap in some of these ambiguous areas. My question is why would this be necessary in a system that is arguably one of the best produced and a base rule system that is arguably one of the catchier ones to date (and consequently one that is drawing people to the gaming hobby e.g. memoir 44).

Will there ever be a "one volume" rules compendium? It would be nice for the dedicated fan...
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Phil McDonald
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"Will there ever be a "one volume" rules compendium? It would be nice for the dedicated fan... "

And the memory-disadvantaged old timer
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Dr ?
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philmcd wrote:
"Will there ever be a "one volume" rules compendium? It would be nice for the dedicated fan... "

And the memory-disadvantaged old timer


How about for the overworked moving to middle-age-family-guy that can't seem to find his ass with both hands?

I actually did waste a portion of a couple play sessions trying to figure out how to add creatures...which sucks when you are playing a light game designed for a quick throw-down!
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Phil McDonald
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Warpiglet wrote:
philmcd wrote:
"Will there ever be a "one volume" rules compendium? It would be nice for the dedicated fan... "

And the memory-disadvantaged old timer


How about for the overworked moving to middle-age-family-guy that can't seem to find his ass with both hands?

I actually did waste a portion of a couple play sessions trying to figure out how to add creatures...which sucks when you are playing a light game designed for a quick throw-down!


I'll see your 'both hands' and raise you a flashlight
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Don Whitney
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I think much of what you describe is the aftermath of the game being in DoW's hands for the 1st few years. They didn't seem to have a clear vision for it with the result being some loose setup rules. The deployment/placement of creatures IMO really should have been defined and stated clearly in the CtoA rules. IIRC the Creature and Lore compendiums are a compilation of posts mostly made by Richard Borg in the DoW forums - not 100% about that though.

Meanwhile, the verdict is still out on how FFG handles these issues. At least they took the risk of intro'ing Battle Savvy, which some like and some don't - I lean to the latter category. When you consider the relatively lucid state of the rules for C&C:A and all it's expansions, it does make you wonder.
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kronovan wrote:
I think much of what you describe is the aftermath of the game being in DoW's hands for the 1st few years. They didn't seem to have a clear vision for it with the result being some loose setup rules. The deployment/placement of creatures IMO really should have been defined and stated clearly in the CtoA rules. IIRC the Creature and Lore compendiums are a compilation of posts mostly made by Richard Borg in the DoW forums - not 100% about that though.

Meanwhile, the verdict is still out on how FFG handles these issues. At least they took the risk of intro'ing Battle Savvy, which some like and some don't - I lean to the latter category. When you consider the relatively lucid state of the rules for C&C:A and all it's expansions, it does make you wonder.


I think you are dead on...however, there were really flashes forethought with the rules.

But I too am amazed that the creature set up was not described. IN all fairness, thought, this issue doesnt become a problem until Call to Arms when set up is variable.

I think FFG will do it right--a goblin army pack is my first indication. Throw in an undead Army, and we are in business. I would be all for more historical units too--I know some like that aspect more than the fantasy...
 
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philmcd wrote:
Warpiglet wrote:
philmcd wrote:
"Will there ever be a "one volume" rules compendium? It would be nice for the dedicated fan... "

And the memory-disadvantaged old timer


How about for the overworked moving to middle-age-family-guy that can't seem to find his ass with both hands?

I actually did waste a portion of a couple play sessions trying to figure out how to add creatures...which sucks when you are playing a light game designed for a quick throw-down!


I'll see your 'both hands' and raise you a flashlight


Oh no!
 
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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Definitely agree with the OP. Our game has been in the drawer for 2 years, and now I have "pushed" my two kids to play it (they have played a bit of M44 and a lot of CCA): no way they could "absorb" all these steps (I have base game plus all goblins, and they don't want to be limited to some "specialists").

The way we are liking it: they choose 15 units among goblins/dwarfs/spider with a war council level 6, I choose 15 units among men with elemental or giant with a similar war council. Very few terrain (if any), hidden setup with a screen, and ready to go!

My Call to Arms is brand new and now I know that it will never get any use...

EDIT: and for the creatures we only have their reference card, sometimes too brief and unclear... Any other thing people use for them?
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franchi wrote:
Definitely agree with the OP. Our game has been in the drawer for 2 years, and now I have "pushed" my two kids to play it (they have played a bit of M44 and a lot of CCA): no way they could "absorb" all these steps (I have base game plus all goblins, and they don't want to be limited to some "specialists").

The way we are liking it: they choose 15 units among goblins/dwarfs/spider with a war council level 6, I choose 15 units among men with elemental or giant with a similar war council. Very few terrain (if any), hidden setup with a screen, and ready to go!

My Call to Arms is brand new and now I know that it will never get any use...

EDIT: and for the creatures we only have their reference card, sometimes too brief and unclear... Any other thing people use for them?


Shame about your CTA, as I think that's one of the funnest ways to play.
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Don Whitney
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philmcd wrote:
franchi wrote:
Definitely agree with the OP. Our game has been in the drawer for 2 years, and now I have "pushed" my two kids to play it (they have played a bit of M44 and a lot of CCA): no way they could "absorb" all these steps (I have base game plus all goblins, and they don't want to be limited to some "specialists").

The way we are liking it: they choose 15 units among goblins/dwarfs/spider with a war council level 6, I choose 15 units among men with elemental or giant with a similar war council. Very few terrain (if any), hidden setup with a screen, and ready to go!

My Call to Arms is brand new and now I know that it will never get any use...

EDIT: and for the creatures we only have their reference card, sometimes too brief and unclear... Any other thing people use for them?


Shame about your CTA, as I think that's one of the funnest ways to play.


Agree, I really enjoy CtoA. One of the things I like most about it, is the new challenge it sometimes introduces when you deploy on a map designed for a very different starting formation. Things get interesting when 1 of your units ends up being on a very strategic, or less than strategic, hex/terrain. I also think many overlook the levy feature, which can make setup much easier.
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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When I play CCA I like to play historical scenarios, and there are 124 official ones already, so no problem finding one I'm in the mood to play. I've never felt the need to play ScenarioX version of the game (generic armies, free setup).

But in BL I don't like the more limited number of scenarios and the fact that in some of them I would like to see fancy units that are not in. So I bought CtA, but before playing or introducing it to my kids I said to myself: why would one go from the limiting scenario setup to a not really free setup, limited anyway by some cards? Why not go to a totally free setup? And BTW a totally free choice of unit composition of your army?

I think that the ScenarioX scheme developed for CCA fits very well BL, you have an army in which you put in all the units you like to see in battle, free/hidden setup, and go! It is really interesting when we take the screen out to see our faces, discovering how my kid placed all his mounted units on one flank, or built up a heavy center, or my best units are facing his spider... And for free.

CtA was not very expensive, but since I have never played it, it's the most expensive "game" I have. BTW, it is the French version, if anyone is interested in trading it for some other thing...
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Don Whitney
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Well here's the thing -and I do respect that CtoA just might not be for you- you can substitute every standard unit with an expansion unit in CtoA deployments if that's your wish. Nothing in the rules states you can't do that, and the only reason to be cautious about it is that it can potentially skew game play balance. If you're goal is to play the game with your kids then I'd recommend going that route and freely substitute each and every unit.

As well, the expansion also introduces the 'Call the Specialist' phase which gives you access to some very interesting benefits - not just unique units, but unique terrain and technologies too. Many use this phase to perform the expansion unit substitutions, which makes it more strategic since your opponent doesn't really know what units your formations will consist of until that time. Some players use War Council points to control how many specialist and thus expansion units can be subbed in, but their really isn't anything preventing a free-for-all approach if that's what you and your opponent wish.

All that said, CtoA isn't the best expansion for new players as it does initially add another layer of complexity. Once you're familiar with it though, it becomes easy to use and it actually becomes a game in and of itself.
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Thanks for the details, I must admit that I don't remember the whole procedure. I guess that if I played BL with a regular opponent CtA would be a good way to play varied and balanced new battles, but I do already play regularly CCA and I'm afraid BL will see only limited play with my kids, or my kids with their friends. They play Warhammer battles that never end and I told them that BL would be funnier and quicker! So I'm avoiding new layers, and they like free setup.

If I get them to play BL regularly I may try to introduce them to CtA later...
 
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Read the rulebook, plan for all contingencies, and…read the rulebook again.
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franchi wrote:
I think that the ScenarioX scheme developed for CCA fits very well BL, you have an army in which you put in all the units you like to see in battle, free/hidden setup, and go!


Holy Cow, what a great idea! A Scenario X booklet for BattleLore!!!
 
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