Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
24 Posts

Memoir '44» Forums » Rules

Subject: Combat Engineers rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Howdy,

Wondering how you guys play this:

When a Combat Engineer moves onto an unrevealed minefield, is it revealed to them?

-Barry
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
yes. if they can combat it, it is removed. If not, it explodes on them.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tim Stellmach
United States
Arlington
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
When a Combat Engineer moves onto an unrevealed minefield, is it revealed to them?

Minefields are revealed when you enter the hex, and I see nothing in the description of combat engineers to contradict that. So, yes.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, guys. So, if it turns out to be a "0" (nothing there), it's automatically removed, as it is for regular units?

In this case (a "0"), the Engineers would be able to battle, as would regular units (if eligible)?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
No. If a Combat Engineer moves on it and has the ability to battle it, it is automatically removed no matter the value, then his turn is finished.

If he moved on it and could not battle, then it would explode on him. With it being a zero, nothing happens and it is removed anyways as normal.

So once you move on to the hex with a mine, there are no more choices. Either he automatically battles and removes it, or it automatically explodes if he wasn't able to battle it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
No. If a Combat Engineer moves on it and has the ability to battle it, it is automatically removed no matter the value, then his turn is finished.


So, I'm assuming then that a "regular" units turn would be over after it's revealed as well? No battle, if eligible?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
No. If a Combat Engineer moves on it and has the ability to battle it, it is automatically removed no matter the value, then his turn is finished.


So, I'm assuming then that a "regular" units turn would be over after it's revealed as well? No battle, if eligible?

A "normal" unit would turn it over as well. But it can battle if still eligible and if it survives the mine blowing up.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks, Brian. That doesn't make sense to me, but I'll play it that way.

Since the type of unit doesn't matter when revealing a minefield, I would think the type of unit shouldn't matter when it turns out to be a "0". In this case, it would appear Engineers are being penalized for being Engineers, even though the rules state they move and battle as Standard units.

I was confused by Engineers being forced to remove (or battle) something that's essentially not there (and thus removed) for any other unit...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stig Morten
Norway
Kvernaland
flag msg tools
Thunder Alley: Crew Chief Expansion - Coming soon to Kickstarter!
badge
Evil lurks here!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
Thanks, Brian. That doesn't make sense to me, but I'll play it that way.

Since the type of unit doesn't matter when revealing a minefield, I would think the type of unit shouldn't matter when it turns out to be a "0". In this case, it would appear Engineers are being penalized for being Engineers, even though the rules state they move and battle as Standard units.

I was confused by Engineers being forced to remove (or battle) something that's essentially not there for any other unit...


Hi Barry

Interesting question you've posted. I read it with interest here and on DoW.com.
I don't know if I can add anything to the discussion, but here is how I have make sense of the engineer situation.

An engineer units INTENTION when entering a hex is either A. Clear the minefield in that hex or B. Move into the hex.
A would be when he is eligeble to battle and must clear the minefield and
B would be when he is on a march to reposition and has moved more than 1 hex or into terrain with battle restriction.

An standard unit has it's intention as either A. Battle a unit nearby
or B.Move into the hex.

Intention B for both standard and engineer units would cause them to walk into the minefield and take whatever damage it gives them.
A for a standard unit would cause them to take whatever damage it gives them while they fight their target unit.
A for the engineer would cause them to clear the minefield as they walk into the minefield.

The flipped minefield marker would be how the first unit that advanced into the minefield tells the soldiers coming behind how strong/dangerous the minefield is. Be it "0", "1", "2", "3" or "4".

But why does a "0" minefield gets removed everytime, you say.
I personally think that is to keep the Memoir'44 game as simple as possible. Memoir'44 doesn't do extra stuff, for stuffs sake.
Why keep a "0" minefield marker on the table when you can remove it?

They could have solved it by having standard units leave the "0" marker on the board, to indicate that a unit has passed this minefield and found it to be of "0"(slim to no chance of damage to units) minefield to other troops. And then have the engineer unit remove the "0" token from the board, since everyone would now be "sure" it was clear.

That is my thoughts on this issue. Became rather long, but all to make sense of a game that abstracts a lot of things to keep the game simple.

Mind you I do love the game and play it a lot, and have no problem with the way the game handles the different situations.

Stig Morten

PS: I can see you have a Memoir'44 Ranger microbadge. Have you ever thought about getting an Engineer microbadge?
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ad79 wrote:
PS: I can see you have a Memoir'44 Ranger microbadge. Have you ever thought about getting an Engineer microbadge?


Thanks, Stig, but I'll stick with my Rangers -- they can move onto a minefield and still battle!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
Thanks, Brian. That doesn't make sense to me, but I'll play it that way.

Since the type of unit doesn't matter when revealing a minefield, I would think the type of unit shouldn't matter when it turns out to be a "0". In this case, it would appear Engineers are being penalized for being Engineers, even though the rules state they move and battle as Standard units.

As Stig pointed out, that it is their purpose. They "spend" the time clearing the field whether it is a decoy or not. They don't get a "do over" just because it was fake.

If you don't want them "penalized" then move them 1 extra hex before landing in the minefield. But then it blows up on them and if it isn't a 0, they are potentially in worse shape.

So why not just move them in and clear it as they are designed to do. And if it is a 0, don't think of it as a penalty but as them doing their job.

Or send you other units and take a gamble but get the opportunity to fight.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
As Stig pointed out, that it is their purpose. They "spend" the time clearing the field whether it is a decoy or not. They don't get a "do over" just because it was fake.

If you don't want them "penalized" then move them 1 extra hex before landing in the minefield. But then it blows up on them and if it isn't a 0, they are potentially in worse shape.

So why not just move them in and clear it as they are designed to do. And if it is a 0, don't think of it as a penalty but as them doing their job.

Or send you other units and take a gamble but get the opportunity to fight.


Thanks, Brian -- it's just confusing because the Minefields rule, after revealing, clearly states: "If the Minefield is a decoy ("0" strength), remove it from the board."

I guess the Standard units stop and say, "Wait a minute, fellas -- I think we walked into a minefield. No, false alarm -- POUR IT ON!" But the Engineers stop and say, "Wait a minute, fellas -- I think we're in a minefield. Nope, false alarm, but let's pick up these 'Minen' signs anyway..."

The official FAQ should be updated to specify that Engineers cannot battle after entering a "0" minefield, instead using their battle ability to remove them (even though the marker is removed anyway).
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Rasmussen
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
The official FAQ should be updated to specify that Engineers cannot battle after entering a "0" minefield, instead using their battle ability to remove them (even though the marker is removed anyway).


The FAQ will include this information in the next update.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
rasmussen81 wrote:
AnglePark wrote:
The official FAQ should be updated to specify that Engineers cannot battle after entering a "0" minefield, instead using their battle ability to remove them (even though the marker is removed anyway).


The FAQ will include this information in the next update.

I am glad that Jesse is proactive in these situations but I really don't understand why an answer needs to be put in FAQs if it is clearly listed in the rules already?!?

Eastern Front Rules, p. 8 wrote:
An Engineer unit that moves onto a Minefield hex and that is
eligible to battle must clear the Minefield hex instead of battling.


Where is the ambiguity? If you can battle as an Engineer, you must clear the minefield instead. You do not get to battle.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
I guess the Standard units stop and say, "Wait a minute, fellas -- I think we walked into a minefield. No, false alarm -- POUR IT ON!" But the Engineers stop and say, "Wait a minute, fellas -- I think we're in a minefield. Nope, false alarm, but let's pick up these 'Minen' signs anyway..."

More like the standard units run across the minefield and say "Well dang, Vern, I told you those were just cow pies."

And the engineers stop to analyze it. Again, they aren't making the determination until the know it is safe. They are still clearing the field under the proper protocol and then determining that it is safe.

I reckon a modern day bomb squad treats everything as live until they go through their whole procedure to detonate the suspicious thing. If it turns out to be fake, they don't go back in time to get those hours of their life back. I have to imagine it was the same with the combat engineers.

The zero within Memoir most likely represents troops that weren't aware they were even in a minefield and just got lucky.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
rasmussen81 wrote:
AnglePark wrote:
The official FAQ should be updated to specify that Engineers cannot battle after entering a "0" minefield, instead using their battle ability to remove them (even though the marker is removed anyway).


The FAQ will include this information in the next update.


Thanks, Jesse! Will it also specify that Engineers do not need to reveal a Minefield, since that's what was alluded to in the DOW thread?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jesse Rasmussen
United States
Bend
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
rasmussen81 wrote:
AnglePark wrote:
The official FAQ should be updated to specify that Engineers cannot battle after entering a "0" minefield, instead using their battle ability to remove them (even though the marker is removed anyway).


The FAQ will include this information in the next update.


Thanks, Jesse! Will it also specify that Engineers do not need to reveal a Minefield, since that's what was alluded to in the DOW thread?


It will probably be a short, simple line that spells out what Richard said. Something about how Combat Engineers cannot battle, even if the token is a '0'.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Barry Doyle
United States
Lynchburg
Virginia
flag msg tools
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Where is the ambiguity? If you can battle as an Engineer, you must clear the minefield instead. You do not get to battle.


Not necessarily ambiguity -- I just needed a clarification, since the Minefields rule clearly states: "If the Minefield is a decoy ("0" strength), remove it from the board."

It seems penalizing to an Engineer to force it to battle something that will be automatically removed for Standard units, after it's revealed.

We'll be using a house rule on that one...

I appreciate everyone's input!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
AnglePark wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:
Where is the ambiguity? If you can battle as an Engineer, you must clear the minefield instead. You do not get to battle.


Not necessarily ambiguity -- I just needed a clarification, since the Minefields rule clearly states: "If the Minefield is a decoy ("0" strength), remove it from the board."

It seems penalizing to an Engineer to force it to battle something that will be automatically removed for Standard units, after it's revealed.

We'll be using a house rule on that one...

I appreciate everyone's input!

Not to belabor it, but you are making the decision to clear the minefield BEFORE you know that it is a zero. By you moving an Engineer with Combat capabilities into a hex with a minefield, you are committing to removing that minefield regardless of the value. Then flip it over and go, oops, a zero - could have just exposed it normally.

The rule you reference is general to minefields and all units. It does not come up under the Engineer rules. You could just leave the 0 on the board, but to what purpose? It doesn't do anything but clutter up the space at that point.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Hébert
United States
Topeka
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Got a question about how to treat a situation where a road block is the obstacle in question.

With regard to wire, the official FAQ says "An Engineer unit that is on a hex with wire may battle and remove wire. The unit will reduce the number of Battle dice it rolls by 1 and also remove the wire from a wire hex...."

Would this apply equally to a road block? As an obstacle for Engineers to deal with, it is similar in nature to wire in that it must be removed when possible.

Assume that on a prior turn the Engineer unit moved two hexes (making it ineligible to battle). The second hex contains a road block. As in the situation with wire, nothing further can be done on this turn. On a future turn, could the unit remove the obstacle AND then battle with 1 less die?

The rules do not specifically say so. But then, neither do they specifically say otherwise. It seems to have been overlooked, perhaps.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Road blocks cannot be removed unless specifically called out in the scenario notes to allow it. I do not know of any official scenario that allows the removal of road blocks.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Hébert
United States
Topeka
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hmm. On page 16 of the Mediterranean Theater rules, DoW offers this for Combat Engineers:

Clearing Road Blocks
An Engineer unit that moves onto a Road Block hex and is eligible to battle may clear the Road Block hex in lieu of battling.


I too am unaware of a scenario that uses this ability. However, on the surface, this description reads much like the one about Combat Engineers and wire, including further text about being unable to act if it had moved 2 hexes already.

By extension, it seems logical to me that in a similar manner, an Engineer unit that starts a turn in a hex with a road block might be similarly capable of clearing the block and battling with 1 less die. Just as it would with wire.

Admittedly, I am superimposing my thoughts here. I had hoped there was a clear precedent!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
Hmmm. And of course, I forgot to double check Med this morning when I answered.

The answer I gave was a paraphrase of the FAQ answer. So it is official. However, it appears something changed after the FAQ was written and Med came out. I am wondering if the rule is specific to Desert Road Blocks and not regular road blocks. The Combat Engr rules don't make a distinction though.

ETA: the FAQ entry:
Q. Is it possible to remove road blocks?
A. Road blocks cannot normally be removed, unless stated otherwise in a scenarioʼs special rules.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James Hébert
United States
Topeka
Kansas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bwah-ha-ha-haaa!

So we're both ... um, "right," although it's a losing proposition to delve into which is "righter." We could go all week over which source is cleaner, more recent, better worded, more official, lasts longer or is less filling... etc. Bah!

Since both publications (MT and the FAQ) have presumably been reviewed by DoW and RBorg, I fear that until the disparity has been pointed out to them it's going to be a house rule situation. You know, "Both answers work, so which way do you wanna play it?"

Is there a mechanism for pointing this out to Dow/RBorg and requesting a clarification?

EDIT: posted to the Official FAQ thread here (http://www.daysofwonder.com/en/msg/?th=17900&prevloaded=1&re...). rasmussen81's opening post in this thread invites questions, so I covered this concern and another question in detail there.)

James
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.