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Subject: Arizona's Immigration Bill is a Social and Racial Sin rss

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True Blue Jon
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I got this (titled above) from Jim Wallis' newsletter. What do you all think about it?

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I got up at 4:30 a.m. on Tuesday morning to fly to Phoenix, Arizona, to speak at a press conference and rally at the State Capitol at the invitation of the state's clergy and other leaders in the immigration reform movement. The harshest enforcement bill in the country against undocumented immigrants just passed the Arizona state House and Senate, and is only awaiting the signature of Governor Janet Brewer to become law.

Senate Bill 1070 would require law enforcement officials in the state of Arizona to investigate someone's immigration status if there is "reasonable suspicion" that the person might be undocumented. I wonder who that would be, and if anybody who doesn?t have brown skin will be investigated. Those without identification papers, even if they are legal, are subject to arrest; so don't forget your wallet on your way to work if you are Hispanic in Arizona. You can also be arrested if you are stopped and are simply with people who are undocumented -- even if they are your family. Parents or children of "mixed-status families" (made up of legal and undocumented, as many immigrant families are out here) could be arrested if they are found together. You can be arrested if you are "transporting or harboring" undocumented people. Some might consider driving immigrant families to and from church to be Christian ministry -- but it will now be illegal in Arizona.

For the first time, all law enforcement officers in the state will be enlisted to hunt down undocumented people, which will clearly distract them from going after truly violent criminals, and will focus them on mostly harmless families whose work supports the economy and who contribute to their communities. And do you think undocumented parents will now go to the police if their daughter is raped or their family becomes a victim of violent crime? Maybe that's why the state association of police chiefs is against SB 1070.

This proposed law is not only mean-spirited -- it will be ineffective and will only serve to further divide communities in Arizona, making everyone more fearful and less safe. This radical new measure, which crosses many moral and legal lines, is a clear demonstration of the fundamental mistake of separating enforcement from comprehensive immigration reform. We all want to live in a nation of laws, and the immigration system in the U.S. is so broken that is serving no one well. But enforcement without reform of the system is merely cruel. Enforcement without compassion is immoral. Enforcement that breaks up families is unacceptable. And enforcement of this law would force us to violate our Christian conscience, which we simply will not do. It makes it illegal to love your neighbor in Arizona.

Before the rally and press event, I visited some immigrant families who work at Neighborhood Ministries, an impressive community organization affiliated with Sojourners' friends at the Christian Community Development Association. I met a group of women who were frightened by the raids that have been occurring, in which armed men invade their homes and neighborhoods with guns and helicopters. When the rumors of massive raids spread, many of these people flee both their homes and their workplaces, and head for The Church at The Neighborhood Center as the only place they feel safe and secure. But will police invade the churches if they are suspected of "harboring" undocumented people, because it is the law? Will the nurse practitioner I met at their medical clinic serving only uninsured people be arrested for being "with" the children of families who are here illegally as she treats them?

At the rally, I started with the words of Jesus (which drew cheers from the crowd gathered at the State Capitol), who instructed his disciples to "welcome the stranger," and said that whatever we do to "the least of these, who are members of my family" we do to him. I think that means that to obey Jesus and his gospel will mean to disobey SB 1070 in Arizona. I looked at the governor's Executive Tower and promised that many Christians in Arizona won't comply with this law because the people they will target will be members of our "family" in the body of Christ. And any attack against them is an attack against us, and the One we follow.

Catholic Cardinal Roger Mahony of Los Angeles just called this Arizona measure "the country's most retrogressive, mean-spirited, and useless immigration law" in the land. On CNN, I defended the Cardinal's comments, which likened the requirement of people always carrying their "papers" to the most oppressive regimes of Nazism and Communism. I wonder whether the tea party movement that rails against government intrusion will rail against this law, or whether those who resist the forced government registration of their guns will resist the forced government requirement that immigrants must always carry their documentation. Will the true conservatives please stand up here? We are all waiting.

Arizona's SB 1070 must be named as a social and racial sin, and should be denounced as such by people of faith and conscience across the nation. This is not just about Arizona, but about all of us, and about what kind of country we want to be. It's time to stand up to this new strategy of "deportation by attrition," which I heard for the first time today in Arizona. It is a policy of deliberate political cruelty, and it should be remembered that "attrition" is a term of war. Arizona is deciding whether to wage war on the body of Christ. We should say that if you come after one part of the body, you come after all of us.
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And the white supremacists go "Hell No they will go"!
 
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same crap, new era
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Chances are they'd make me want to move away from the state, if just because I am at a legal status that does not have defined paperwork to prove it: Designed to be a very short period, nowadays it takes years. Not that I'd carry my immigration paperwork with me at all times anyway.

If I stopped you on the street, how many of you could produce proof of citizenship on the spot? Chances are all you have is a driver's license, which doesn't really prove a thing, and an American accent, which doesn't even help all Americans.

Incentives to immigrants and an open culture was always one of the few things that America had as a cultural advantage over most of the rest of the west. Nowadays, you are throwing it away like a used newspaper.
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The purpose of the legislation seems reasonable.

Quote:
The legislature finds that there is a compelling interest in the cooperative enforcement of federal immigration laws throughout all of Arizona. The legislature declares that the intent of this act is to make attrition through enforcement the public policy of all state and local government agencies in Arizona. The provisions of this act are intended to work together to discourage and deter the unlawful entry and presence of aliens and economic activity by persons unlawfully present in the United States.


The OP's Jim Wallis quotation mis-characterizes portions of the bill. All of the things identified as illegal in SB 1070 are currently illegal under existing AZ law. What the bill does is grant authority for law enforcement inter-agency cooperation when handling criminals who are also, or suspected to be, trespassing.
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I grew up in Texas where the lower third of the economic ladder was then filled by illegal immigrants. They didn't take jobs from anyone else because legal residents wouldn't take such jobs.

The anti-immigrant paranoia is nuts. People with no idea what they are talking about construct bizarre scenarios as scare tactics. Yes, California has problems with illegal immigrants because they're stupid enough to deport anyone who tries to obey the law after crossing the border. California gets thugs and criminals because it kicks out anyone who isn't a thug and a criminal. Texas has many politicians and prominent citizens that are children of illegal immigrants because Texas deports those who break the law within Texas, not those desperate people who cross the border because they have nothing and no hope at home.

I am sad to see Arizona following the California model.
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whac3 wrote:
I grew up in Texas where the lower third of the economic ladder was then filled by illegal immigrants. They didn't take jobs from anyone else because legal residents wouldn't take such jobs.

The anti-immigrant paranoia is nuts. People with no idea what they are talking about construct bizarre scenarios as scare tactics. Yes, California has problems with illegal immigrants because they're stupid enough to deport anyone who tries to obey the law after crossing the border. California gets thugs and criminals because it kicks out anyone who isn't a thug and a criminal. Texas has many politicians and prominent citizens that are children of illegal immigrants because Texas deports those who break the law within Texas, not those desperate people who cross the border because they have nothing and no hope at home.

I am sad to see Arizona following the California model.


I grew up in texas where illegal immigrants took most of the jobs which used to be done by teenagers. Then, using that as a base they took many of the construction jobs all the way up to the $15 an hour level.

Without a legal stake in society, they frequently ignore laws the rest of us take for advantage. Such as when I was hit from behind and spent 22 weeks in physical therapy. The illegal immigrant wasn't insured, didn't show up in court, and will never pay a dime of the $25,000 judgement placed against him. David Mendez. My shoulder *still* has issues 15 years later. He and his buds rammed me from behind at a red light doing about 30mph. Then tried to escape but their radiator was shot and a cop was close by.

The hospitals in this area are legally required to treat them-- but then they don't pay. So I, a legal citizen, end up paying 10% to 15% higher medical bills to cover the cost of providing care for illegals.

Likewise, I have to pay higher taxes to provide schooling for the illegal immigrant children of illegal immigrants. Now- add the irony that a couple years ago they all got riled up and walked around with mexican flags saying california, texas, new mexico and parts of other states were "really" mexico and they still viewed themselves as mexicans- not americans.

I would much rather pay $80 a month for lawn care and not have to pay all these other costs.

Mexico is their country. They set the rules there. If it sucks as a country as a result of their rules, then they need to fix it instead of coming here.

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hibikir wrote:
Chances are they'd make me want to move away from the state, if just because I am at a legal status that does not have defined paperwork to prove it: Designed to be a very short period, nowadays it takes years. Not that I'd carry my immigration paperwork with me at all times anyway.

If I stopped you on the street, how many of you could produce proof of citizenship on the spot? Chances are all you have is a driver's license, which doesn't really prove a thing, and an American accent, which doesn't even help all Americans.

Incentives to immigrants and an open culture was always one of the few things that America had as a cultural advantage over most of the rest of the west. Nowadays, you are throwing it away like a used newspaper.


Driver's license is proof in New Mexico because it requires citizenship to obtain (or so say the backers of the bill as that will be how it is enforced the most often); otherwise, I wouldn't have anything either.
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maxo-texas wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I grew up in Texas where the lower third of the economic ladder was then filled by illegal immigrants. They didn't take jobs from anyone else because legal residents wouldn't take such jobs.

The anti-immigrant paranoia is nuts. People with no idea what they are talking about construct bizarre scenarios as scare tactics. Yes, California has problems with illegal immigrants because they're stupid enough to deport anyone who tries to obey the law after crossing the border. California gets thugs and criminals because it kicks out anyone who isn't a thug and a criminal. Texas has many politicians and prominent citizens that are children of illegal immigrants because Texas deports those who break the law within Texas, not those desperate people who cross the border because they have nothing and no hope at home.

I am sad to see Arizona following the California model.


I grew up in texas where illegal immigrants took most of the jobs which used to be done by teenagers. Then, using that as a base they took many of the construction jobs all the way up to the $15 an hour level.

Without a legal stake in society, they frequently ignore laws the rest of us take for advantage. Such as when I was hit from behind and spent 22 weeks in physical therapy. The illegal immigrant wasn't insured, didn't show up in court, and will never pay a dime of the $25,000 judgement placed against him. David Mendez. My shoulder *still* has issues 15 years later. He and his buds rammed me from behind at a red light doing about 30mph. Then tried to escape but their radiator was shot and a cop was close by.

The hospitals in this area are legally required to treat them-- but then they don't pay. So I, a legal citizen, end up paying 10% to 15% higher medical bills to cover the cost of providing care for illegals.

Likewise, I have to pay higher taxes to provide schooling for the illegal immigrant children of illegal immigrants. Now- add the irony that a couple years ago they all got riled up and walked around with mexican flags saying california, texas, new mexico and parts of other states were "really" mexico and they still viewed themselves as mexicans- not americans.
Why is this a problem?

Quote:
I would much rather pay $80 a month for lawn care and not have to pay all these other costs.

Mexico is their country. They set the rules there. If it sucks as a country as a result of their rules, then they need to fix it instead of coming here.

"Without a ...stake in society"? Non-sense, even with the adjective "legal".

They are living in the US. Sorry, but I lived among them and they raised families. They wanted a good and safe society for their children. Yes, they'd rather have been able to stay in Mexico but they did what they had to do to survive.

Oh, as for taking teenagers' jobs, this is not my experience at all. Most were farm workers, hotel maids, etc., jobs no teenager would take because they were too labor intensive. Maybe things have changed but I suspect you just weren't living near the border.
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I grew up in Texas where the lower third of the economic ladder was then filled by illegal immigrants. They didn't take jobs from anyone else because legal residents wouldn't take such jobs.


Legal residents would take such jobs if the price were right. I'd shovel elephant crap all day with a smile on my face if I could double my current salary to do it. Unfortunately, elephant-crap shoveler pays a bit less than IT guru.

Look, we have laws. People shouldn't be angry that Arizona is actually going to enforce those laws. If we think the laws are bad, change them. Don't just grant a one-time amnesty every 20 years and wait for the problem to reach a breaking point again. Clearly the demand for more immigration from employers and from people wishing to move here continues to be very high. Let's get government out of the way, streamline the process, increase the numbers, and bring these people in as full members of society.

The price is never right for that kind of labor-intensive manual work. Too many less physically difficult jobs exist. What you are citing is theoretical economics with no practical reality.
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out4blood wrote:
The OP's Jim Wallis quotation mis-characterizes portions of the bill. All of the things identified as illegal in SB 1070 are currently illegal under existing AZ law. What the bill does is grant authority for law enforcement inter-agency cooperation when handling criminals who are also, or suspected to be, trespassing.


It does a good deal more than that.

I requires any and all AZ law enforcement authorities to enforce immigration laws as prescribed and actually mandates penalties for bodies that don't. This means that if a local sheriff decides his officer's time could be better spent doing something else, he can't actually write a memo or give an order that says so or he violates the statue.

It makes merely being in the state illegally and on public property at least a misdemeanor. Now if the goal is to enforce federal law, why exactly is this required? Might it be to provide additional probable cause for arrest under a state as well as a federal statute (since the law enforcement body may not have powers of arrest for federal crimes in the first place)?

It also modifies reasons for traffic stops and subsequent investigations, etc.

Now all of the provisions can be cast as a "law and order" approach to things. And all of them can be cast otherwise. But it strikes me that this pretty much individual officers to decide whether they'll be enforcing immigration law (since their superiors are enjoined from saying they shouldn't), creates an atmosphere that could encourage abuse and harassment, and has agencies enforcing laws where they may not have powers of arrest in the first place.

Not my recipe for good policing and community building, but that's me.
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
I grew up in Texas where the lower third of the economic ladder was then filled by illegal immigrants. They didn't take jobs from anyone else because legal residents wouldn't take such jobs.


Legal residents would take such jobs if the price were right. I'd shovel elephant crap all day with a smile on my face if I could double my current salary to do it. Unfortunately, elephant-crap shoveler pays a bit less than IT guru.

Look, we have laws. People shouldn't be angry that Arizona is actually going to enforce those laws. If we think the laws are bad, change them. Don't just grant a one-time amnesty every 20 years and wait for the problem to reach a breaking point again. Clearly the demand for more immigration from employers and from people wishing to move here continues to be very high. Let's get government out of the way, streamline the process, increase the numbers, and bring these people in as full members of society.


As long as Americans refuse to pay more than $1 for an Avacodo, there will always be demand for migrant workers and illegal aliens. And if that demand is not met because of the lack of either American workers who are willing to work for a wage or enough Migrant workers in the working pool so that American farmer, or American home builder can pay and still stay in business, then illegal aliens will always have a place to work here. enforce away, but the laws of supply and demand tell me it'll never go away.
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I take a moderate approach to handling illegal immigration. We want and need illegal Mexicans here to do our dirty work. I have one cutting my lawn weekly and I'm happy about it. Right or wrong, that's what's going to happen. I don't want him to pay taxes because he makes a wage I wouldn't work for and I don't want him to pass on the price increase to me.

On the other hand, I'm not interested in seeing our social services at the state or federal level bankrupted by illegals.

There are people on the right who are simply racist and want to see the Mexicans gone for primarily that reason. On the other side of the aisle there are unrealistic people who have never seen a cause or disadvantaged group to which they won't offer up all kinds of tax payer-funded freebies. These two positions are ridiculous.

There's a balance there somewhere and I don't have the answers.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
I take a moderate approach to handling illegal immigration. We want and need illegal Mexicans here to do our dirty work. I have one cutting my lawn weekly and I'm happy about it. Right or wrong, that's what's going to happen. I don't want him to pay taxes because he makes a wage I wouldn't work for and I don't want him to pass on the price increase to me.

On the other hand, I'm not interested in seeing our social services at the state or federal level bankrupted by illegals.

There are people on the right who are simply racist and want to see the Mexicans gone for primarily that reason. On the other side of the aisle there are unrealistic people who have never seen a cause or disadvantaged group to which they won't offer up all kinds of tax payer-funded freebies. These two positions are ridiculous.

There's a balance there somewhere and I don't have the answers.


Well, You'll never be Attorney General ......cool



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Darilian wrote:


Well, You'll never be Attorney General ......cool

I'd have to be an attorney first. At least I think that's how it works.
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perfalbion wrote:
out4blood wrote:
The OP's Jim Wallis quotation mis-characterizes portions of the bill. All of the things identified as illegal in SB 1070 are currently illegal under existing AZ law. What the bill does is grant authority for law enforcement inter-agency cooperation when handling criminals who are also, or suspected to be, trespassing.


It does a good deal more than that.

I requires any and all AZ law enforcement authorities to enforce immigration laws as prescribed and actually mandates penalties for bodies that don't. This means that if a local sheriff decides his officer's time could be better spent doing something else, he can't actually write a memo or give an order that says so or he violates the statue.


Maybe I am way out of line with this, but I don't have a big problem with law enforcement officers enforcing the law. Laws which say law enforcement officers have to enforce the law are regrettable, but apparently necessary.
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bjlillo wrote:
whac3 wrote:
The price is never right for that kind of labor-intensive manual work. Too many less physically difficult jobs exist. What you are citing is theoretical economics with no practical reality.


So you deny that the forces of supply and demand effect the price of labor?


He seems to be denying that supply and demand create a job at any price. It's the same as with products: In real life, neither the supply/wages or the demand/price functions happen to be linear, and you can't really look at one without the other. In fact, it's had to look at the curves for one occupation without looking at those of other occupations with similar qualifications.

For jobs like being a hotel maid or landscaping peon, removing the illegals leads to ugly equilibriums, where the decline in demand leads to a far smaller market, and economical destruction, as the price that would enough people want to do the jobs would be so high as to make the demand for said jobs shrink in a major way: If the price is too high, Jarred mows his own lawn, because he's not willing to pay 4x the current price to someone to do it for him. He might cut it less often, or not remove the weeds as diligently as his worker did, leading to a smaller market overall.

I would expect you to make the libertarian argument, and claim that what this shows is that the minimum wage is too high, and the supply of legal workers too low. Therefore, a different solution is to just slash the minimum wage and increase the immigration caps so much as to allow workers with no specialization to come to the US.

I personally would do little with the minimum wage, boost legal immigration ten fold, and use actual market economics against the barriers of entry into the health sector. Other countries have little trouble treating illegals in an economically efficient way. Why can't the US do the same?
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hibikir wrote:
Jarred mows his own lawn

You've gone too far, sir.
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jarredscott78 wrote:
hibikir wrote:
Jarred mows his own lawn

You've gone too far, sir.

Might help with the gut you must be getting after all the beer you've been tweeting about..... whistle

Like I can talk!!!! blush

Darilian
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jarredscott78 wrote:
I take a moderate approach to handling illegal immigration. We want and need illegal Mexicans here to do our dirty work. I have one cutting my lawn weekly and I'm happy about it.


Of course you would be happy, you are getting someone to do a job below prices even a teenager would do them at.

And you are externalizing the rest of your costs to the rest of society. We pay for health care, food, schooling, uncovered motorists, etc.

I've mown my own law for months at a time to avoid using illegals. I have on problem with anyone here legally.
 
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I (and my sisters and my cousins) took those jobs growing up.
I cut grass, shovelled pig crap, baled hay (loved this one) and/or was grunt on construction sites from 7-17. Some of these jobs paid more than minimum and others didn't.

I don't know if today's teens would take these jobs or not. One of my kids probably would, but I know another that isn't interested.
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And, more on topic, I am adamantly for enforcing any laws that are on the books and taking off any that we (as a society) don't think are worth enforcing.
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A hell, maybe changing my name to match my step father's wasn't such a good idea after all. I hope being pasty white remains proof of citizenship, because carrying my US passport at all times would be annoying.
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maxo-texas wrote:
jarredscott78 wrote:
I take a moderate approach to handling illegal immigration. We want and need illegal Mexicans here to do our dirty work. I have one cutting my lawn weekly and I'm happy about it.


Of course you would be happy, you are getting someone to do a job below prices even a teenager would do them at.

And you are externalizing the rest of your costs to the rest of society. We pay for health care, food, schooling, uncovered motorists, etc.

I've mown my own law for months at a time to avoid using illegals. I have on problem with anyone here legally.

I don't completely disagree with you. On one hand, I think we as a whole benefit from having a certain number of low-wage laborers. On the other hand, it's not fair that I can hire someone for cash and then expect the taxpayers to pick up the check for his health care. There is no completely fair AND optimally efficient situation as far as I can tell. If I could do the impossible and tip the system $10 a week on top of what I pay my guy I think that would be the fairest and best possible solution.
 
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Godeke wrote:
A hell, maybe changing my name to match my step father's wasn't such a good idea after all. I hope being pasty white remains proof of citizenship, because carrying my US passport at all times would be annoying.

Amigo! Lopez is my landscaper's name!
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