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War of the Ring: Battles of the Third Age» Forums » Rules

Subject: Gates are Closed and Gollum rss

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dave
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Ok, Gollum is the guide and the FSP Declares in MM when Gates is on the table. SP uses Gates and draws a "2". Can the FSP voluntarily reveal to reduce corruption by 1? Would the FSP then be placed on the Mordor Track revealed?

This seems like the right way, but I was just checking. I'm thinking that once the FSP declares, they gain access to the Mordor Track and Gates would occur after that so if Gollum uses his guide power, they would just be revealed. Alternatively if revealed, maybe the FSP can't get on the Mordor Track anymore and the FP basically turn stalled themselves!

I ended up just taking the 2 corruption, but it was close as the game ended with the FSP at 11 corruption . Challenge of the King took out 2 Eyes to pave the way for a Turn 14 dunk.




SUMMARY OF THREAD
1. FP declares during FSP phase
2. Draw Hunt tile for Gates (and also possibly Balrog)
3. Resolve Hunt tile (Gollum could voluntarily reveal)
4. Move FSP to Mordor Track (regardless if FSP is now revealed)
5. Restock Hunt Pool (any Eye tile drawn would be put back into the pool)

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Kevin Warrender
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Sorry I can't say for sure, but I would say the Fellowship gets put on the Mordor track first, then the hunt tile is drawn/resolved.

Although another question would be is the hunt pool refilled before or after this tile draw? Again, I would say yes. Once they declare in Mordor everything happens as if they are in Mordor.

But I could be wrong.

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Amado Angulo
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You may want to check this one too:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/512505/tournament-rules-...
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dave
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amajo wrote:


Good spot--I did not see this because it was posted in the wrong forum (my same old, tired complaint about expansion items being placed in the base game forum).

This thread dealt with whether reveal icons on the Gate's draw are still ignored in the CE. I think the thread concluded that they are since no rules were supposed to be changed although the text on the card sure seems to say otherwise. My question above never quite got answered as Gates would not reveal the FSP and no one brought up the possibility that Gollum could voluntarily reveal.

So rules guru Krieghund said " The declaration of the Fellowship must be completely resolved before it can be moved to the Mordor Track. This includes any events triggered by that declaration. "

But I think this doesn't really answer my question here--yes it must be fully resolved, but does that mean (1) you turn stall yourself (ie, don't get to go on the mordor track), or (2) are on the mordor track but revealed, or maybe that (3) you simply can't use Gollum's ability here.

Good thing this doesn't come up very much. In hindsight I should have discarded the damn card with a C action die and been done with it (rather than playing the "0" special tile). My game had a happy ending, but it was close--too close at 11 corruption with gollum eating frodo's finger.

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Kevin Chapman
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This is a good question. Normally, the effects of one or more Hunt tile draws caused by a Fellowship revelation or declaration are completely resolved before anything else occurs. However, the rules say that the Fellowship is placed on the Mordor Track "immediately" after being declared in either Minas Morgul or Morannon. The question is, does "immediately" literally mean immediately, interrupting the normal sequence, or does it mean immediately after the normal revelation sequence is concluded.

If it interrupts the sequence, the Fellowship will go to the Mordor Track and the Hunt Pool will be modified before the tile is drawn. If it doesn't, the tile will be drawn first and a reveal will cause a turn stall.

Personally, I like interrupting the sequence. This allows the declaration in Mordor to be irreversible once it happens, and it also interprets the Mordor declaration rules literally.
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dave
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Interesting. A stumper Q. Now I guess there's 2 issues, the whole declare thing if Gollum voluntarily reveals and whether the Gate's tile is drawn from Hunt Pool before or after restocking (and if that drawn tile is restocked).

P. 21, 1st col., 3 par. states: "As soon as the FSP is declared to be in MM or Morannon during a FSP Phase, immediately proceed to the following steps: (1) Place FSP on the first step of the Mordor Track .... (2) Create a new Hunt Pool ...

Gates says "Discard Gates to draw an additional Hunt Tile if the FSP enters ... a Shadow Stronghold whilst being declared .... Ignore any Reveal icon on the tile."

The new CE Gates omits the "Ignore any Reveal icon" and instead says "follow the rules for a successful Hunt" which suggests reveal icons now count. (But let's assume that the CE doesn't change any rules and not have that discussion again here; anyways, regardless of that, my questions still need an answer.)

I was thinking that after declaration, you'd draw the Gate's tile, resolve the tile, then move the FSP to the Mordor Track, then restock the Hunt Pool (so a Gate's Eye would be put back into the pool). Upon declaring, the FSP was destined for the Mordor Track so using Gollum to voluntarily reveal would just put the FSP on the Track revealed and there would be no turn stall since the FSP was able to declare in MM or Morannon during the FSP phase.

However, upon further reflection, it seems equally arguable, if not even more persuasive, that after declaration, the FSP goes to the Track, the Hunt Pool is restocked, then you'd draw the Gate's tile (now you could also draw a special tile and any Eye drawn would be out), and then Gollum could voluntarily reveal without any problem/issue.

It does seem like Gates was not suppose to be another turn stall as it cannot reveal the FSP (and one of the main points of the expansion was to help the Free). However it is relatively easy to discard Gates, but still. Seems like this is ripe for a FAQ answer.



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Andy Latto
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Krieghund wrote:
This is a good question. Normally, the effects of one or more Hunt tile draws caused by a Fellowship revelation or declaration are completely resolved before anything else occurs. However, the rules say that the Fellowship is placed on the Mordor Track "immediately" after being declared in either Minas Morgul or Morannon. The question is, does "immediately" literally mean immediately, interrupting the normal sequence, or does it mean immediately after the normal revelation sequence is concluded.

If it interrupts the sequence, the Fellowship will go to the Mordor Track and the Hunt Pool will be modified before the tile is drawn. If it doesn't, the tile will be drawn first and a reveal will cause a turn stall.

I don't see why a turn stall would happen even if the movement to the Mordor track happens after the normal declaration sequence (which may include the reveal sequence due to Gates are Closed). The rules don't say "immediately move the fellowship to the Mordor track if not currently revealed"; they say "immediately move the fellowship to the Mordor track". If you declare the fellowship in Minas Morgul, and this triggers Gates are Closed, and this then causes a reveal, this doesn't go back in time and cancel out the declaration; the fellowship was declared in Minas Morgul, and was subsequently revealed in Minas Morgul. It should now be moved to the Mordor track, as the rules specify.

You cannot declare the fellowship if it as been revealed before you declare it. But the fact that the fellowship was revealed after it was declared does not change the fact that it was declared in Minas Morgul, so it goes to the Mordor track. No turn stall. If you claim that the fellowship wasn't declared in Minas Morgul, then there was no event that triggered Gates are Closed at all, so the tile that was drawn shouldn't have been drawn!
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Kevin Chapman
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Good point, but that still leaves the issue of whether the Hunt Pool is modified before or after the Hunt tile draw.
 
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bertrand d
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No turn stall for sure and reading the word "immediately" I would say that the new hunt poll is created also immediately.

1. The FP declares in Minas Morgul and does the following 2 steps immediately
a. move FSP to Mordor track
b. add the drawn eyes and special tile to hunt poll
2. Having declared upon leaving or crossing a Shadow fortress, draw a tile due to the gates are closed.
3. Resolve the tile result (ignoring any reveal results on the tile)
4. If gollum wants to reveal the FSP to reduce the tile corruption it is revealed on step 1 in Mordor track.

In terms of role play, I would say that the FSP is now in Mordor, so the presence of Sauron is stronger.
But I agree also that the fortress is not in Mordor itself. So there can be debate.

ps: the same situation would happen if the FSP crossed the Balrog space while declaring in Mordor.
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dave
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Lugbar wrote:
No turn stall for sure and reading the word "immediately" I would say that the new hunt poll is created also immediately.

1. The FP declares in Minas Morgul and does the following 2 steps immediately
a. move FSP to Mordor track
b. add the drawn eyes and special tile to hunt poll
2. Having declared upon leaving or crossing a Shadow fortress, draw a tile due to the gates are closed.
3. Resolve the tile result (ignoring any reveal results on the tile)
4. If gollum wants to reveal the FSP to reduce the tile corruption it is revealed on step 1 in Mordor track.

In terms of role play, I would say that the FSP is now in Mordor, so the presence of Sauron is stronger.
But I agree also that the fortress is not in Mordor itself. So there can be debate.

ps: the same situation would happen if the FSP crossed the Balrog space while declaring in Mordor.


Excellent. My conclusion was the same I agree that this seems the best way and is internally consistent. And thanks for adding in the Balrog as well as it seems that this should also be treated the same way. If both the 'rog and Gates were down, it sure would make for an exciting entrance into Mordor. I also still think this would be a good addition to the FAQ.

 
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Amado Angulo
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dave65tdh wrote:
I was thinking that after declaration, you'd draw the Gate's tile, resolve the tile, then move the FSP to the Mordor Track, then restock the Hunt Pool (so a Gate's Eye would be put back into the pool).... there would be no turn stall since the FSP was able to declare in MM or Morannon during the FSP phase.


I talked with one of the designers some time ago and he agrees with this version. No turn stall.

Quote:
1. The FP declares in Minas Morgul and does the following 2 steps immediately
a. move FSP to Mordor track
b. add the drawn eyes and special tile to hunt poll
2. Having declared upon leaving or crossing a Shadow fortress, draw a tile due to the gates are closed.
3. Resolve the tile result (ignoring any reveal results on the tile)
4. If gollum wants to reveal the FSP to reduce the tile corruption it is revealed on step 1 in Mordor track.


He also said that the text in the card "upon entering a Shadow Stronghold" interrupts the "immediately" word in the rulebook, so it means that the Hunt Pool resets AFTER the tile of the card has been drawn.
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Kevin Chapman
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OK, so that would mean that the Hunt tile is completely resolved in the Stronghold. The Fellowship is then moved to the Mordor Track and the Hunt Pool is modified, regardless of the outcome of the Hunt tile (unless, of course, it results in the end of the game).
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Mont A.
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Krieghund wrote:
OK, so that would mean that the Hunt tile is completely resolved in the Stronghold. The Fellowship is then moved to the Mordor Track and the Hunt Pool is modified....


Not that I'm any expert, but this order of operations (completely resolve the effects of the Gate before moving the Fellowship to the Mordor Track and reconstituting the Hunt Pool) also seems preferable on thematic reasons. I mean, in the book, the gate's closure temporarily keeps the Fellowship out of Mordor, forcing them to find another way in. So in game terms, it only makes sense that its effect is resolved before moving to the Mordor Track.


Of course, along those lines, if we're arguing for thematic appropriateness, I think the Gates tile should allow for the possibility of a turn stall, since that's exactly what it does in the book: postpones the Fellowship's entry into Mordor.....
 
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Amado Angulo
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Does the CE card has the "ignore any reveal icon"?
 
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Kristofer Bengtsson
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amajo wrote:
Does the CE card has the "ignore any reveal icon"?


Yes.
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