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Subject: Spotted Snipers rss

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Christophe Brackeniers
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Rule 7.2: Once spotted and in good order, you must move the sniper one card away from any friendly units during each Activity Check Segment until it is out of friendly LOS or has exited the map, in which case remove it from play.

Does this mean that once the sniper is out of LOS, he:
a) becomes unspotted again,
b) is replaced by a PC counter, or
c) remains on this card until a US unit comes into LOS again and the sniper retreats once more (until it finally exits the map)?

(EDIT: or d) remove from play the moment it is out of LOS)


Thanks,
XT
 
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Christopher
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Xtov wrote:
Rule 7.2: Once spotted and in good order, you must move the sniper one card away from any friendly units during each Activity Check Segment until it is out of friendly LOS or has exited the map, in which case remove it from play.

Does this mean that once the sniper is out of LOS, he:
a) becomes unspotted again,
b) is replaced by a PC counter, or
c) remains on this card until a US unit comes into LOS again and the sniper retreats once more (until he finally exits the map)?

Thanks,
XT


It means that once the sniper is out of LOS, he "disappears". Just replace him with a PC counter.
 
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Mark L
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Xtov wrote:
Does this mean that once the sniper is out of LOS, he:
a) becomes unspotted again,
b) is replaced by a PC counter, or
c) remains on this card until a US unit comes into LOS again and the sniper retreats once more (until he finally exits the map)?

a) no
b) no
c) yes

teufen wrote:
It means that once the sniper is out of LOS, he "disappears". Just replace him with a PC counter.

An enemy unit will disappear only per the Enemy Defensive Activity Hierarchy: "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" case. A sniper doesn't use this table (see errata clarification for 9.6), so never gets removed in this manner.

If a spotted sniper is no longer in LOS of a US unit, it just stays put. That's how I play it. In my experience, this means a sniper, once spotted, is typically a much lesser threat: when you get the sniper back in LOS, it retreats again, giving priority to moving out of LOS. However, the US unit that regains LOS to the sniper may very well be distracted into engaging the sniper before it scampers away.

AFAIK, there is no provision for a spotted sniper (or any spotted unit, for that matter) to become unspotted again. There have been several discussions about handling enemy units that are out of LOS in more sophisticated ways. IMO, snipers would be a good candidate for this.

EDIT: I may very well be wrong about leaving spotted snipers on the map if they are out of LOS. They should probably be removed. See other posts below.
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Eric Guttag
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Christopher B.

Mark L. is correct. Sniper activity is governed strictly by Rule 9.5 unless they become a LAT (e.g., Fire Team). Once spotted, the Sniper remains spotted and must move away from US units each Enemy Activity phase each turn until out of LOS (in which case it stops until once again in LOS of a US unit) or until the Sniper moves back completely off the last row cards, in which case, the Sniper is removed (vanishes). In fact, this mechanism is how the US units chase the Sniper off the playing surface (unless you're extremely lucky and pin the Sniper or the resulting LAT so you can kill it)
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Christopher
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zhredder wrote:

teufen wrote:
It means that once the sniper is out of LOS, he "disappears". Just replace him with a PC counter.

An enemy unit will disappear only per the Enemy Defensive Activity Hierarchy: "Not under fire and no LOS to a US unit" case. A sniper doesn't use this table (see errata clarification for 9.6), so never gets removed in this manner.

If a spotted sniper is no longer in LOS of a US unit, it just stays put. That's how I play it.


You must be right... I played it wrong after all.
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Pelle Nilsson
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I think the Sniper rules are as clear as they could be about the Sniper being reomved once out of LOS (and there is no mention of placing a PC)? Where do do you find support for some other interpretation?
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Chris Buhl
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pelni wrote:
I think the Sniper rules are as clear as they could be about the Sniper being reomved once out of LOS (and there is no mention of placing a PC)? Where do do you find support for some other interpretation?


Yes, I agree with this. As the OP quotes the rules, the sniper is simply removed from play. There is no reason I can see to leave it in the game, either as a PC marker, or an unspotted unit. It certainly doesn't indicate that in the rules, or in the errata, or the reorganized rules.

Chris
 
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Mark L
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fatgreta wrote:
pelni wrote:
I think the Sniper rules are as clear as they could be about the Sniper being reomved once out of LOS (and there is no mention of placing a PC)? Where do do you find support for some other interpretation?


Yes, I agree with this. As the OP quotes the rules, the sniper is simply removed from play. There is no reason I can see to leave it in the game, either as a PC marker, or an unspotted unit. It certainly doesn't indicate that in the rules, or in the errata, or the reorganized rules.

Oops, my apologies! Original rule (9.6):
Quote:
Once spotted and in good order, you must move the sniper one card away from any friendly units during each Activity Check Segment until it is out of friendly LOS or has exited the map, in which case remove it from play.

There's certainly a case to be made there for removing a spotted sniper once it's out of LOS! I associated the last clause "...in which case remove it from play" only with the "exited the map" condition.

Errata for 9.6:
Quote:
If a Sniper no longer has any eligible targets, leave it in place
until another target appears.

This sort of reinforced my interpretation to leave spotted, out-of-LOS snipers on the map, since an out-of-LOS sniper has no eligible targets. But I suppose this clarification might be primarily concerned with unspotted snipers, and so doesn't necessarily supercede the 9.6 sentence I quoted above. shake

So indeed it does sound as though spotted snipers are removed if out of LOS. Seems too easy.
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Chris Buhl
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zhredder wrote:
If a Sniper no longer has any eligible targets, leave it in place
until another target appears.

This sort of reinforced my interpretation to leave spotted, out-of-LOS snipers on the map, since an out-of-LOS sniper has no eligible targets. But I suppose this clarification might be primarily concerned with unspotted snipers, and so doesn't necessarily supercede the 9.6 sentence I quoted above. shake

So indeed it does sound as though spotted snipers are removed if out of LOS. Seems too easy.
[/q]

Yes, and also the fact that a new target could arrive in the sniper's LOS very quickly, before it has a chance to fall back. Although I don't want to muddy the waters, I think it's clear that, firing or not, during the enemy activity phase, a spotted sniper falls back.

This discussion calls to mind another game whose rules have been much maligned, Up Front. I actually think those rules were very well done, but that's another story. One thing I like about those rules is the design notes and historical background. As I recall, when they talk about why snipers operate as they do in the game, they give an excellent description of how snipers actually operated in WWII. I'll try to find those rules and that section, but it made a lot of sense to me, and so does the way snipers operate in this game. In a nutshell, they weren't generally under a unit's command, they moved and operated independently. When good targets presented themselves, they fired, if they thought it was worth the risk. They weren't usually sent out by a CO with orders to "Kill the enemy commander," or anything like that.

Chris
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Mark L
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fatgreta wrote:
Although I don't want to muddy the waters, I think it's clear that, firing or not, during the enemy activity phase, a spotted sniper falls back.

No disagreement there. I think the main question is what to do with the sniper when it is out of LOS. As pointed out by you and Pelle, there is definitely a case for removal. Next question is when is the sniper removed. Since rules don't say otherwise, that might mean it's removed immediately if it moves out of LOS. But that sounds even easier, compared to how I've been playing it.

Quote:
This discussion calls to mind another game whose rules have been much maligned, Up Front. I actually think those rules were very well done, but that's another story.

I have Up Front, but haven't played it in a very, very long time. I don't remember having any rules trouble, tho. These days, lots of people just don't seem to like the very formal, structured, enumerative style of rules for games from that era and before. But then they complain when less formal, more narrative rules leave too much open to interpretation. Go figure. [/soapbox]

Quote:
As I recall, when they talk about why snipers operate as they do in the game, they give an excellent description of how snipers actually operated in WWII...
In a nutshell, they weren't generally under a unit's command, they moved and operated independently.

I don't recall how snipers worked in Up Front, but the way you describe it, that's one of many Squad Leader/ASL influences on Up Front. In ASL, snipers are more or less random events.

To continue the thread-jack...
OTOH, I also like the sniper rule in Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes (yeah, I recall you mentioning in another thread that you weren't too fond of the game...). In LnL, the sniper can't move, but the player is allowed to place it on the map at virtually any time during the game. So you can pretty much count on it showing up at the worst possible moment. Very cinematic (which is an intentional design paradigm of LnL). But it's also an interesting abstraction: until the sniper is placed, it represents an unseen but constant threat, which probably mirrors well how RW grunts on the ground feel about snipers.
 
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Christophe Brackeniers
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I used to play as described by Mark L (using the same line of thought, with an added doubt caused by the last part of erratum/clarification 9.6)

I will now change and do as proposed by Pelle and Chris, until some higher authority makes me change my mind (again).

It isn't that important to the game (how wonderful: everybody plays his own version, and all of us like it), but I never doubted on how to play the sniper in Up Front or LnL.
 
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Chris Buhl
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zhredder wrote:


To continue the thread-jack...
OTOH, I also like the sniper rule in Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes (yeah, I recall you mentioning in another thread that you weren't too fond of the game...). In LnL, the sniper can't move, but the player is allowed to place it on the map at virtually any time during the game. So you can pretty much count on it showing up at the worst possible moment. Very cinematic (which is an intentional design paradigm of LnL). But it's also an interesting abstraction: until the sniper is placed, it represents an unseen but constant threat, which probably mirrors well how RW grunts on the ground feel about snipers.


That wasn't me, but I remember the post. I've never played LnL. I love their WWIII games, Blood & Bridges et. al. What you describe about the sniper is basically what the Up Front rules say about them. I also read a very good book about snipers once. I tried to find it on Amazon but couldn't. It was a history of snipers and sniper technology from the Civil War until the present day, not one of the tell all sniper books (which, of those I've read, have been pretty lame). It talked extensively about the impact of snipers on soldiers, in places like Stalingrad and The Falklands. Entire companies would sometimes stop in place due to the presence of a single sniper.

And my limited experience with snipers in FoF is, they are a real bear. Hard to spot, a big punch against one unit, they also create a potential crossfire, and even if you spot them, they're a single step so you often have to spend commands shifting fire, which means ignoring large enemy formations, yada yada. It's a good thing they fall back and disappear, or they'd be like invisible .50 cal MGs.

Chris
 
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Mark L
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fatgreta wrote:
zhredder wrote:

OTOH, I also like the sniper rule in Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes (yeah, I recall you mentioning in another thread that you weren't too fond of the game...)...

That wasn't me, but I remember the post...

Whoops. Sorry, my mistake. I misread search results when I was double-checking. blush

Quote:
It's a good thing they fall back and disappear, or they'd be like invisible .50 cal MGs.

Yeah, the Germans have enough MG34/42s anyway. The A VOF squads are a major headache.
 
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Chris Buhl
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zhredder wrote:
fatgreta wrote:
zhredder wrote:

OTOH, I also like the sniper rule in Lock 'n Load: Band of Heroes (yeah, I recall you mentioning in another thread that you weren't too fond of the game...)...

That wasn't me, but I remember the post...

Whoops. Sorry, my mistake. I misread search results when I was double-checking. blush

Quote:
It's a good thing they fall back and disappear, or they'd be like invisible .50 cal MGs.

Yeah, the Germans have enough MG34/42s anyway. The A VOF squads are a major headache.


Yeah, right? I play a miniatures game with local guys, Disposable Heroes and Coffin For Seven Brothers. The Fallschirmjager squads in that game throw TONS of dice for all their damn machine guns. Brutal.
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Steven Fuller
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Silly question, but does a sniper who's moving away continue to exert a PDF into a card if their is an eligible target in LOS?

I play with yes, but I was just wondering. It makes the sniper seem kinda at a disadvantage... He's running away, yet decides to, while exposed, pull out his gun and shoot at the the largest enemy force nearby.
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Chris Buhl
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Jfuller wrote:
Silly question, but does a sniper who's moving away continue to exert a PDF into a card if their is an eligible target in LOS?

I play with yes, but I was just wondering. It makes the sniper seem kinda at a disadvantage... He's running away, yet decides to, while exposed, pull out his gun and shoot at the the largest enemy force nearby.


That seems like an advantage to me - he fires even while he retreats.
 
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Keiron
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Would people agree that if a German sniper falls back, is exposed as a result and is still within LOS of a US unit, and following the posts above is still able to exert a VOF and PDF, would it be fair to assume that the sniper would use the Small Arms VOF marker, not the Sniper -3 VOF?

My thinking being that as he is moving backwards while he may be able to fire it might not be as accurate?

I hope that all made sense.

Also, bearing the above in mind, if the sniper unit were to fall back onto a card containing another German unit that was firing into a card, would the sniper then join in firing at that same card?

Any help gratefully received. Thanks!
 
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Chris Buhl
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Kappa_ap wrote:
Would people agree that if a German sniper falls back, is exposed as a result and is still within LOS of a US unit, and following the posts above is still able to exert a VOF and PDF, would it be fair to assume that the sniper would use the Small Arms VOF marker, not the Sniper -3 VOF?

My thinking being that as he is moving backwards while he may be able to fire it might not be as accurate?


I wouldn't see why he'd stop being a sniper. The exposed marker impacts fire into his card, not fire out of it. I'd say he's still exerting the -3 VOF against a single target, -1 against the rest.

I haven't played it a while, so refresh my memory, but is a sniper automatically spotted if he falls back in LOS of enemy units?



Quote:
I hope that all made sense.

Also, bearing the above in mind, if the sniper unit were to fall back onto a card containing another German unit that was firing into a card, would the sniper then join in firing at that same card?

Any help gratefully received. Thanks!


IIRC, is a sniper who is firing out of a card with any spotted units automatically spotted at that time?

I believe the sniper would then exert his PDF along the same axis that the units already on the card are firing through.
 
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