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Subject: Goldman Sachs is under fire for fraud rss

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Randy Gee
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I for one, am completely shocked.
 
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Tim Seitz
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?
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MGK
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out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


This implies that either of them would ever, in fact, be needed. Really, if you want a more loathsome pair of characters in fiction, I'm hardpressed to name them. They make Raoul Duke and Dr. Gonzo look like the Care Bears.
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Tim Seitz
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mightygodking wrote:
out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


This implies that either of them would ever, in fact, be needed. Really, if you want a more loathsome pair of characters in fiction, I'm hardpressed to name them. They make Raoul Duke and Dr. Gonzo look like the Care Bears.

Is that the Canadian edition, where they reversed the good and bad guys?
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Randy Gee
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out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


Probably in Galt's Gultch.
 
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Tobias Strobe
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out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


Would Rearden and Taggart be on the side of the government in this case or on the side of Goldman Sachs?
 
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Gary Page
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mightygodking wrote:
out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


This implies that either of them would ever, in fact, be needed. Really, if you want a more loathsome pair of characters in fiction, I'm hardpressed to name them. They make Raoul Duke and Dr. Gonzo look like the Care Bears.


god for one?
 
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Steve Vondra
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I'll give you the results of this whole matter a few months in advance.

Goldman Sachs will pay a fine of at least seven digits, enough to make impressive headlines, but in reality, a small fraction of the obscene profits they stole made off these "sh!%%#" products.

A couple of lower level managers will spend a few months at Eglin AFB's "Club Fed"

After much political posturing and hand wringing, Congress will pass a loophole ridden and largely ineffectual financial reform bill

The public will remain much more interested in who Simon Cowell danced off the island.
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Tim Seitz
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Ilthuain wrote:
out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


Would Rearden and Taggart be on the side of the government in this case or on the side of Goldman Sachs?


I don't know.

When I read of the government bailing out and taking over uncompetitive companies because they are "too big too fail;" when I hear about regulations being enacted to cap pay for executives in private sector companies; when I hear the Treasury Secretary lament that disparity in the recovery is "unfair;" and especially when I read about the rapid increase of pirates preying on our shipping lanes; I am reminded of all the villains from Atlas Shrugged.

But where are the heroes?

Who is John Galt?
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Goldman's sack is on fire for Freud.

I know, it doesn't contribute to the discussion, but I was compelled to type it anyway.
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Eric Knauer
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In an interview below, Bill Clinton claims the timing of the suit is suspect, he's read a lot of material on the matter, and isn't sure the law was broken. He also suggests going off the gold standard has increased economic inequality.


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Chad Ellis
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out4blood wrote:
When I read of the government bailing out and taking over uncompetitive companies because they are "too big too fail;"


Small nitpick -- the "too big to fail" companies weren't uncompetitive in the general sense. (The auto industry is another issue, but "to big to fail" generally refers to the financial sector.)
 
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Sam I am
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I'm amazed that banks can legaly do things that would put Tony Soprano in jail.
 
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Kenneth Bailey
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Imagine a bookie pulling that with some of his "clients". I think he would find out just how cold the Hudson can get.

"Say, do you make that cement block in a size...Hey what size does that guy wear anyway? Oh it doesn't matter does it...."
 
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Tobias Strobe
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out4blood wrote:
Ilthuain wrote:
out4blood wrote:
I feel like we're living in a novel. Where's Hank Rearden and Dagny Taggart when you need them?


Would Rearden and Taggart be on the side of the government in this case or on the side of Goldman Sachs?


I don't know.

When I read of the government bailing out and taking over uncompetitive companies because they are "too big too fail;" when I hear about regulations being enacted to cap pay for executives in private sector companies; when I hear the Treasury Secretary lament that disparity in the recovery is "unfair;" and especially when I read about the rapid increase of pirates preying on our shipping lanes; I am reminded of all the villains from Atlas Shrugged.

But where are the heroes?

Who is John Galt?


So fucking over investors by not disclosing a conflict of interest has something to do with excessive government regulation?

I understand that confirmation bias does color how we all process information, but this is a horse of a different color. We're not talking about good, hard working industrialists attacked by mean-old-Mr. BIG GOVERNMENT, we're talking about bullshitting about a synthetic CDO and selling this shorted turd without mention that it was in their best interest if it went tits up. It would take some serious logical alchemy to lay this problem at the feet of the Too Much Regulation Monster.

Also, the dramatic 'who is John Galt' is funny as hell. Keep it up.
 
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Scott Russell
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Ilthuain wrote:

So fucking over investors by not disclosing a conflict of interest has something to do with excessive government regulation?


I think you are confusing two issues. If Goldman Sachs execs (and possibly others) ignored the old laws and committed fraud, what makes you think that they will conform to new regulations?
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Tobias Strobe
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qzhdad wrote:
Ilthuain wrote:

So fucking over investors by not disclosing a conflict of interest has something to do with excessive government regulation?


I think you are confusing two issues. If Goldman Sachs execs (and possibly others) ignored the old laws and committed fraud, what makes you think that they will conform to new regulations?


From what I've read, what they did might've not actually been illegal, just immoral... but the real point is that this has nothing at all to do with excessive government interference.
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T. S. Higgins
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Ilthuain wrote:


From what I've read, what they did might've not actually been illegal, just immoral... but the real point is that this has nothing at all to do with excessive government interference.


I agree, it has nothing to do with if the Government should bail out these businesses or their investors.

They should have left well enough alone and let these businesses fail, and the investors would have taken a massive loss, but the economy as a whole would have recovered and been in a much better position in the long run.

It used to be that if a business was in trouble, they had to sell off assets to better positioned businesses, or they declared bankruptcy and reorganized under a new management team. Good thing we're past the days where businesses are held accountable for their actions in any way.
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Scott Russell
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Ilthuain wrote:


From what I've read, what they did might've not actually been illegal, just immoral... but the real point is that this has nothing at all to do with excessive government interference.


I agree that excessive government regulation did not make financiers slimy. But more regulation will not make them less slimy.

So one can't use Sachs' behavior as a reason for more regulation. (Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?)
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Tobias Strobe
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qzhdad wrote:
Ilthuain wrote:


From what I've read, what they did might've not actually been illegal, just immoral... but the real point is that this has nothing at all to do with excessive government interference.


I agree that excessive government regulation did not make financiers slimy. But more regulation will not make them less slimy.

So one can't use Sachs' behavior as a reason for more regulation. (Maybe I am misunderstanding your point?)


I was responding to the objectivist reaction to the situation, not proposing a solution.
 
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Randy Gee
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eknauer wrote:
In an interview below, Bill Clinton claims the timing of the suit is suspect, he's read a lot of material on the matter, and isn't sure the law was broken. He also suggests going off the gold standard has increased economic inequality.


You need to get better material Billy. Are you getting your stuff on Goldman from the same people who told you that NAFTA was a great idea and would help the united states workforce?
 
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Chad Ellis
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eknauer wrote:
In an interview below, Bill Clinton says that Goldman Sachs believes claims the timing of the suit is suspect, he's read a lot of material on the matter, and isn't sure the law was broken. He also suggests going off the gold standard has increased economic inequality although it was also necessary.


Fixed that for you. The second bit just adds context (as written, your post suggests that he thinks it was a mistake) but the first is more important. Clinton does not say that he thinks the timing is suspect. He's answering a question about GS and says that they are mad because they think the timing is suspect and they're being targeted.
 
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Eric Knauer
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
eknauer wrote:
In an interview below, Bill Clinton says that Goldman Sachs believes claims the timing of the suit is suspect, he's read a lot of material on the matter, and isn't sure the law was broken. He also suggests going off the gold standard has increased economic inequality although it was also necessary.


Fixed that for you. The second bit just adds context (as written, your post suggests that he thinks it was a mistake) but the first is more important. Clinton does not say that he thinks the timing is suspect.

Yeah, he kind of stumbles and says "they think that, I think that..." but you're right within the context of his remarks.
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Jeff Brown
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Darrett wrote:
They should have left well enough alone and let these businesses fail, and the investors would have taken a massive loss, but the economy as a whole would have recovered and been in a much better position in the long run.


This is something I hear all the time from people but from everything I've read about the problem this is not true. Perhaps someone can jump in if they know more. (What I mean by know more is have some actual facts rather than just some politically convenient statement)

The big question was in balancing systemic risk vs. moral hazard. Moral hazard is what you are talking about. We need to let companies fail or there will be no incentive to do better. This should generally be true unless you run up against systemic risk. The problem is that because of interbank lending and a high level of leveraging letting one bank fail means starting a domino effect as one bank causes another bank from whom they are indebted to fail, which causes another to fail which causes another to fail.

Add to that the problem of credit default swaps and one company sufficiently networked could theoretically pull down the whole economy.

All the big banks at the heart of the financial system seem to have become very intertwined in unforseen ways. This is how it played out as well. Bear Stearns disappeared within a couple of weeks leading to Lehman Brothers and Merril Lynch. AIG was next which had its hands into everything. I am not happy about the bailouts at all but I wonder if they didn't happen if we would be in the middle of a depression right now. It seems like the classic damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

When the issue first began most people were of the opinion that you should just let them fail but when people began to look at the books a huge nightmare scenario was realized. The toxic investments and systemic risk was so widespread that it could've caused widespread economic failure.

Most people who I talk to who keep saying that we should let everything fail usually have no idea how things played out. I could be wrong of course.

The companies were falling over like dominos, until the government starting buying up all of the bad debts.

When greed starts to outpace wisdom at the rates it does now everything becomes unstable.
We're now dealing with the consequences of systemic greed which has infested private companies, private lives, and public agencies. I wouldn't be surprised if something happens again within the next decade.
 
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Chad Ellis
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I know just enough about the financial sector to know that I barely have a clue. That said, I do know many of the top thinkers in finance, economics and business and almost without exception they say that a major government intervention was necessary and that we can't even imagine how badly it would have been -- not just here, but globally -- if they had just "let the market work".

Money is the oil in the economic engine. Claiming that a collapse in the financial sector wouldn't do massive, ongoing damage to the economy is like claiming that a NASCAR race should continue on schedule even though it's been revealed that every car's oil has been siphoned out.
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