Dave J McWeasely
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I was playing on Flex today, and it wouldn't let me use my Contact Specialist for both subsettles in an Improved-Logisticized Settle phase. I kinda expected to be able to, because "settle powers stack", but then I thought about CS being invoked multiple times per phase, and I wasn't so sure. What's the answer?
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
MrWeasely wrote:
I was playing on Flex today, and it wouldn't let me use my Contact Specialist for both subsettles in an Improved-Logisticized Settle phase. I kinda expected to be able to, because "settle powers stack", but then I thought about CS being invoked multiple times per phase, and I wasn't so sure. What's the answer?
AFAIK, it should work, as Keldon's AI program allows for using CS to settle 2 worlds in a single III phase with IL.

It's not like a takeover power where you're restricted to 1 different TO power per III phase, or how Col. Ship/DW only work for 1 world (IL does nothing to make that power persist for the rest of the III phase, unlike NMT or pay-for-mili-powers).

Also, discounts like RR and Rebel Pact work for all worlds when using IL. Granted, these are meant to stack, but they can still be used multiple times.

EDIT: forgot to include "different"
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Once invoked, Pay for Military powers persist until the end of a phase. Therefore, you can use CS twice with IL.

(This wasn't clearly specified in the original rules, so the implementation may be in error and not allow this.)

Note that even though Pay for Military powers persist, they don't stack, since once you apply one of them, the target is no longer a military world for the other power to be applied.
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Todd France
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Once invoked, Pay for Military powers persist until the end of a phase. Therefore, you can use CS twice with IL.

Does this mean if I use Contact Specialist for my first settle, I HAVE to use it for my second, if that is also military?
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Conan Meriadoc
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Note that even though Pay for Military powers persist, they don't stack, since once you apply one of them, the target is no longer a military world for the other power to be applied.


Let's consider the following scenarios :

1) I've got Rebel Alliance, Contact Specialist and Improved Logistics in my tableau.
- I use CS to settle a military (non-rebel) world
- I then use RA to settle a military Rebel world, with the -2 discount.

2) I've got 3 military power, Contact Specialist and Improved Logistics in my tableau.
- I use CS to settle a 5-defense military world
- I then settle (conquer) a 3-defense military world without paying

The way you are wording things, it seems to me that step 2. of both scenarii would be illegal plays.

#1 is not valid since the target of Rebel Alliance's power was already included in the scope of the Contact Specialist's power, and is no longer a military world for the other power to be applied => I do not get the -2 discount, only -1 (CS); or could I decide to apply RA's power before CS's power in order to get the Rebel discount, even if I'm not using it immediately ?

#2 is not valid as I activated Contact Specialist's power on the first subsettle, and it is still active => the 3-defense world is no longer considered a military world this phase.

Could you please confirm / clarify this ?
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
The first is valid; the second is not valid but for a different reason. If you say that the player has 4 Military without CS or 3 *net* Military, then the second scenario is valid.

CS's Pay for Military power is optional; note the word "may" in the text. So, invoking it for the first Settle doesn't prevent invoking either Rebel Alliance or Military powers for the second settle of Improved Logistics.

However, CS's -1 Military Settle power is NOT optional. Therefore, your effective net Military is 2, which prevents the Military conquer in the second case (unless you meant to say that the player's net Military, including CS, was 3).
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Conan Meriadoc
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Tom Lehmann wrote:
(unless you meant to say that the player's net Military, including CS, was 3).

This was what I meant. Thanks for the answers !
 
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
ackmondual wrote:
It's not like a takeover power where you're restricted to 1 TO power per III phase


This isn't quite right - you can use two separate takeover powers in the same Settle with IL, but you can't use the same power twice.
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Serge Levert
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
The rules of some of these scenarios just don't stick with me. I repeatedly read/learn them, forget them and relearn them in an endless cycle.

I also find this one really counter intuitive, as we are triggering Contact Specialist's power multiple times in a phase (i thought powers can only be triggered once per phase?) Ok anyway so we are allowed for Contact Specialist, then why not with takeover powers? What's the difference?
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Tom Lehmann
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
entranced wrote:
Ok anyway so we are allowed for Contact Specialist, then why not with takeover powers? What's the difference?

The takeover restriction (each TO power once per Settle phase) is an explicit exception noted in the rules.

Mostly, the RFTG rules are fairly clean, but there are a handful of exceptions that we created -- after much internal debate -- for various reasons. We don't do this lightly, as we do place a premium on consistency.

In this case, we created an explicit exception to reduce player frustration. Suppose you have a "small military" empire who puts down Imperium Lords. Then, an opponent with "big military" puts down Improved Logistics and Rebel Alliance. At this point -- without this exception -- the small military power would basically just have to take it, losing two military worlds every Settle phase to the Rebel Alliance player.

Now, you could argue that "small military" player got greedy and made a mistake and "should" be punished for doing so. And, yes, that's part of what the takeover rules do. However, leaving players with no hope *at all* isn't a fun position to put them in. See the various "sour grapes" threads for examples of how some players already find the current takeover rules too punishing.

With this exception, the small military player facing a big military player with a (relevant) takeover power can either A) try to make some tableau headway by getting Improved Logistics down and settling two worlds per phase, while losing one to takeovers or B) try to "tread water" by settling worlds with goods (since newly Settled worlds can't be taken during the phase they hit the table) and consuming them for VPs, trying to win either by VPs or by preserving enough worlds for his or her 6s to still matter (since this player is now unlikely to win by tableau rushing).

Granted, the probabilities of winning aren't large (the small military player has gotten into a hole), but at least there's some line worth playing for. We think this case is worth creating a rules exception to handle. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
smestorp wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
It's not like a takeover power where you're restricted to 1 TO power per III phase


This isn't quite right - you can use two separate takeover powers in the same Settle with IL, but you can't use the same power twice.
I actually knew this, but worded it incorrectly. Fixed it.
 
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Michael Brough
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
ackmondual wrote:
smestorp wrote:
ackmondual wrote:
It's not like a takeover power where you're restricted to 1 TO power per III phase

This isn't quite right - you can use two separate takeover powers in the same Settle with IL, but you can't use the same power twice.
I actually knew this, but worded it incorrectly. Fixed it.


I did have the feeling you knew it, but just wanted to make sure nobody else got the wrong idea.
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Assume I don't have Improved Logistics:

Can I apply/activate two different "Pay for Military" powers, even though I only can use one of them?

The answer does not really matter. Even though I have Pan-Galactic Mediator, I realise I can only gain one Prestige, since I actually only used one of these powers.

Now for a slightly different matter:

Can I apply/activate two different "Conquer Non-military World" powers? (From Imperium Cloaking Technology and Imperium Invasion Fleet.)

I might want to get rid of Imperium Cloaking Technology in order to not end the game.

From my understanding of the rules, it seems like

i) I can activate any number of such powers, but
ii) the description of the powers says "discard [...] to place", so I don't get to discard the card if I don't use the power to place a world.

Is this correct?

 
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Tom Lehmann
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
borgemik wrote:
Assume I don't have Improved Logistics: Can I apply/activate two different "Pay for Military" powers, even though I only can use one of them?

No. (Though you can activate one "Pay for Military" power and one or more powers that modify it.)
Quote:
Can I apply/activate two different "Conquer Non-military World" powers?

No (just like you can't activate Colony Ship when there is no cost to reduce).
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Re: Yet another Improved Logistics + settle stack question
Thanks.

I figured out that the key here is your use of "Once invoked" above:

i) You cannot invoke a "Pay for Military" power unless you are about to settle a military world
ii) Once you have invoked the power, you cannot invoke another (since the world now has been converted to a non-military world)
iii) But once invoked, you can use the same power later in the same phase (when settling with Improved Logistics)
 
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