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Talisman (Revised 4th Edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: Alternative Endings: 2Ex4ER Recreations and Additions rss

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JC Hendee
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UPDATED 9/21/2010
2Ex4E Alternative Endings package.



ALL PREVIOUS IMAGES HERE HAVE BEEN REMOVED. The zip packages for my Alternative Endings and minis, as well as minis created for Azoic's AltEnds, now can be found at Fantastic Diversions or by going directly to its F.D. Downloads Page. I am waiting to see if some previous uploads appear in the BGG files sections before I upload this package here.
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Lorenzo Carnevale
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Good Job JC!

Could I/you/we come up with a way to translate these in other languages?

And besides... I had one idea to avoid the unpleasant mixing of official endings and unofficial (house-printed) endings: create custom cards ,each one referencing an ending. To draw a random ending, just draw a card from this custom deck, and when the ending must be revealed, substitute the card for the 'real thing' (either official or cheaply home-printed).
 
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JC Hendee
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Certainly translation is possible, though I do not speak any language but English. (I can read a bit of Spanish, Scottish Gaelic, and Latin... but only with my reference texts handy). If this interests you, and you are multi-lingual, then we can talk more about it. I do use some different softwares for translation, but would never trust them for a finished product.

As to small cards... you're not the first to raise this idea. I've done a lot of work with creating custom templates and illustrations for other homebrew expansion makers as well as my own works (see TalismanIsland.com). And I've already heard from some players as well wanting a "deck" of small cards to place on the Crown of Command for random draws, since the AltEnd cards are too big. Some wanted ones the size of the old 2E ending cards, but I talked them out of it. Better to create ones the size of a standard Talisman 4ER card. Why?

Most people making (not creating) fan cards for their game use the card sleeve method. Card fronts and backs are run off on a printer or at a copy center, usually on photostock (thicker than paper but thinner than cardstock). The fronts and backs are then trimmed off separately and slipped back to back into a cards sleeve. Presto! Instant card!

This approach also has the advantage (for other decks) in that one can print extra card 'backs' to slip into a sleeve behind commercial cards. Presto! All cards in the deck (homemade or commercial) now look the same when the deck is shuffled and stacked.

I have something in the works for just such a small set of AltEnd draw cards (deck) to go on the CoC. I will hopefully get some up for preview here during the week. I also post developments at the Talisman subforum of the FFG forums.
 
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offel- warble
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Good job, artwork is pretty, too.

I might have something to contribute if you're willing to listen, having recently done the Alternate Endings run for my own little group. I geared mine up to cater for sections weak in the new revised 4th... so, a Dragon King identical to the 3rd ed, an unsnipeable Demon Lord (because that gets stupidly annoying)... Oh and the Horrible Black Void ending to keep those dominating players, who might otherwise become a little bastardly, on their toes ^^.

I like the showdown with the Celestial Axe; it embodies the logical chain of thought of the player who gets bored with the original Crown of Command. I've played games where I've gotten bored up there, and knowing I was the most powerful character (hence getting there first), left the tower to kill everyone else in a new state of lethality... A far more rewarding victory than sitting and waiting for everyone to die! That said, I don't like weighting the game against evil players. Perhaps something more balanced, or an evil counterpart to match?

Demon Lord. You're right about him being far too weak; I also don't like that he's so heavily weighted against Strength-based characters. All my alternate bosses have methods of making both stats useful... my solution was to make him Strength and Craft 10, and have him always fight on the lowest of the two (after bonuses, like the Mercenary) ... that makes him ridiculously tough, and his ability to regen all lives when someone quits has in past made new players drop out in exhaustion... we play that ending for as much as six hours... OK, my revised v4 with no expansions is probably a slower game than yours, but give it a try if you need harder baddies. Also, you play it that way and it helps out the players who choose to play a steadier game, with balanced Strength and Craft and means that the veterans in the know still get stumped sometimes.

Last but not least, the HBV or dreaded Horrible Black Void. I had much different thoughts to yourself; it is the Hard Luck ending that I would never see scrapped. Then, excluding the player who draws it from the game and having him/her sit and watch is hideously undesirable... So, what do you think of making it an apocalyptic event? "The first character to touch this space dies... in any given turn, all characters who fail to move at least four spaces are dragged inward one realm in the order Extension Realms -> Outer -> Middle -> Inner -> DEATH. The last man standing can claim victory... albeit a shallow one."? Means that the game ends shortly after; if it cuts your game short you can always play again?

I can send you my cards if you like, if anything seems vaguely appealing. Just didn't want to post big imposing pictures in your glory thread ;D
 
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JC Hendee
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Hi Warble!

warble wrote:
I like the showdown with the Celestial Axe; ... That said, I don't like weighting the game against evil players. Perhaps something more balanced, or an evil counterpart to match?


A very worthwhile notion. It was originally intended as the counterpoint for the Demon Lord... Strength vs. Craft. But the issue of alignment isn't balanced between the two. So indeed, if alignment is to be used as a response criteria for an end 'boss' enemy, something needs to be done about that.

Quote:
Demon Lord. You're right about him being far too weak; I also don't like that he's so heavily weighted against Strength-based characters. All my alternate bosses have methods of making both stats useful...


I'm afraid I wouldn't go that far. A few end bosses with double stats is enough. Too many, and there aren't enough nasty surprises (but ones that can still be faced). The pair of dragons in there already pound on character double time in both Battle and Psychic Combat. That's enough for my tastes right now on these cards. Doesn't mean my group only uses my stuff; they nose around and look at what other people are doing with AltEnds and bring things to our sessions (which are infrequent since we live far apart).

Quote:
Last but not least, the HBV or dreaded Horrible Black Void. I had much different thoughts to yourself; it is the Hard Luck ending that I would never see scrapped.


Perfectly reasonable. As said, reactions to it are really really bi-polar in the majority. My group back in the 2E days play games with it. After it came up twice... the response was in the extreme. That card was ceremoniously burned... yes, I mean literally. That's how much it was hated.

Quote:
So, what do you think of making it an apocalyptic event? ...all characters who fail to move at least four spaces are dragged inward one realm in the order Extension Realms -> Outer -> Middle -> Inner -> DEATH. The last man standing can claim victory... albeit a shallow one."?


Too random for me since it has nothing to do with how built up the characters are... just the luck of a movement roll. One thing dislike about 4ER by my group (AND the two test groups abroad that I use) is how many old cards with control features (like the old 2E horse) were reworked as pure randoms with no minimal control at all. The ending you suggest might work for some groups, but not for mine.

And feel free to post cards. I don't own this topic. But it is mostly about reworked 2E AltEnds and then spin offs based on them. As to other endings, I have several dozen based in the 2E versions that many others have done. A few can be found at TalismanIsland.com And with that...

Solaris, the following is a quick card template composition showing what I meant by smaller cards to stack at the CoC. The template was rendered from scratch to emulate the AltEnd cards. Don't know if this is anything close to what you meant. The sample below, when drawn from a deck of like cards, would mean pulling out the Draco Regina AltEnd. If this is not what you meant, let me know how far off the mark I was.

As to a card back, there are a number of ways to go. Here are a couple. Personally I've never like the back of the AltEnd cards. Its a perfectly good piece of artwork... except it doesn't imply, infer, or even outright represent anything Talisman-like... especially an endgame that should be represented by the Crown of Command itself.



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Lorenzo Carnevale
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JC, they look amazing!
It would be useful to have cards like that for official endings also (the 3 endings in Frostmarch + Danse Macabre + Coc).
Remember to put an icon for revealed endings
 
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JC Hendee
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UPDATE: I have modified the Celestial slightly. See what you think. A counterpoint for Evil and for Neutral are in the works as well, though I hadn't planned on doing a counterpoint to a counterpoint.



I was wondering about the whole revealed, hidden, and random thing. Especially since the "Crown of Command" card could be used more than one way. Also, positioning an icon on these smaller cards will take a little thought.

Any thoughts about the card back, as to which one is better... or any suggestion for an alternative? I had thought of a card back that actually has a crown on it. Or for the standard back having one without the borders and corners so it looks more like the back of an AltEnd card.



And here is a possibility for "revealed" vs drawn/hidden endings. Note the lower left corner. Neither of these are print resolution... yet.

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Lorenzo Carnevale
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I like both your card backs. But the one with the vertical bar looks a bit horizontally asymmetric. I can't decide for the border : could you just provide both ?

The "revealed" icon (I guess putting it on the Danse Macabre card was just for a visual test)) it's a bit too small, but I agree on placing it on the corner.



 
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JC Hendee
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Solaris wrote:
I like both your card backs. But the one with the vertical bar looks a bit horizontally asymmetric. I can't decide for the border : could you just provide both ;)?


I suppose, but when it comes time to package these for download, I would prefer to just have one. The sideways one was just an experiment to see if I could get more of artwork on the card. But it doesn't seem to work very well with wrapped with a border. Without a boarder, it can be view sideways / longways like the back of an AltEnd card and it looks a little better... sort of. The borderless version is also for full bleed and would not have any white around it.

Quote:
The "revealed" icon (I guess putting it on the Danse Macabre card was just for a visual test)) it's a bit too small, but I agree on placing it on the corner.


So the DM is not a chosen ending at the beginning of play? It does have the old style star at the beginning of its first description paragraph. This indicates that this particular rule is in play from the beginning of the game (I think). That seems to indicate it has to be a revealed ending. My group doesn't use anything to do with the Reaper anymore, so it has been a while since I've looked into it.
 
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Lorenzo Carnevale
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No, the star at the beginning of a paragraph means that the "starred" rule is applied to every player, not just the one(s) on the CoC space.
 
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JC Hendee
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Ah, I see, so it is a random drawn ending. Thanks.

And so, I'll toss in another AltEnd... the first mirror to the Celestial, so the goodie-two-shoes don't have all of the fun. This is just a starting point and it needs more work.





 
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JC Hendee
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Okay, I've at least got the mini marker cards worked out. Below are examples of the latest with artwork added. And I've decided to go with the first card back, so that all groups using the minis will be using the same backs. Groups do interact at times and share components (well, the ones I'm in contact with around the world do so). This way there's a standard for all made cards to be easily mixed. Anyone wanting something else will have to make it themselves.

I think star marker for "revealed" is adequate as well. Considering only one such card would be laid on the crown of command space, everyone would know its a revealed single ending anyway. If you notice any glitches or errors in the card design or individual cards, let me know.

Once I finish with my AltEnds (hopefully not long in the future), I will package them up AND include PNG templates for the minis. People will be able to make their own mini cards for any homebrew AltEnds either as markers or for a more convenient random draw deck. The following graphics are at 300ppi and suitable for print. Simple right-click and save.

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JC Hendee
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I'm hitting another crunch time in my writing schedule, so it looks like it will be a while before I can finish my AltEnds for a final package. So... with that... I'm releasing the mini-templates in general and have even done so at the FFG forum. Right-click and save the PNGs for local use; they are full 300ppi for printing.

You are free to use and share them as you like, though not in altered form; the fronts are still my original work not for use other than as intended. You will need to use a layer capable graphics editor, such as Gimp, Photoshop, Corel, Paintshop Pro (and Gimp is FREE). Place your illustration on the bottom layer, place the chosen template on the next layer up, and finally position you card title on the top layer. And there you have it!!! You can find needed fonts at TalismanIsland.com.

If there is a special variation needed for new subtypes of AltEnds in the future, please feel free to contact me via www.NobleDead.com and I will produce new needed variations for public use. Right-click and save images below to use them for making your own AltEnd minis.






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JC Hendee
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And here's another slapped together in my time off. Alias the "Belt of Hercules", I've changed the title to fit Talisman's more generic fantasy setting. Details of its powers have been tweaked as well, since the old standard of Strength 12 wouldn't mean squat with the Strength levels seen 4ER. I'm not fully satisfied with the illustration I constructed, but it will do.

It's probably the most boring of all the old 2E endings, but some enjoy it, so it should be included in any set. It's not outright hated by some as with the HBV. Right-click and save the mini, then right-click and save HERE to get the AltEnd card; both are at 300ppi for print.

A counterpart Craft-based Magic Object will come in the near future when I have time.

 
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JC Hendee
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And one last stop for the night, and possibly a few days. Here is the Torc of Will, counterpoint to the previous card. It's off the cuff and untested and no more exciting than the last one. Maybe give it a try and see what your group thinks. Perhaps it even needs to be pumped up a little since Craft is always the harder route in the game.

Same right-click / save as last time, and you'll find the AltEnd card HERE.
 
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JC Hendee
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And the Neutral counterpart to the Celestial and the Infernal found above. Right-click and save the image; right-click and save HERE for the AltEnd card. And perhaps that's enough of the "boss" enemy style endings, even combined with getting one's hands on an uber Magic Object.

Over the next few days, I will likely look at something for Pandora's Box (err, actually it was a "jar" or urn). Not sure there's any counterpoint to it, but maybe something will pop up in the process. Now back to my grind.

 
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JC Hendee
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Here is my variation on the old Pandora's Box. As always, right-click and save the Mini and the same HERE for the AltEnd card. Both are at 300ppi for print.

At this time, I do not see a counterpart potential in this AltEnd. It is fairly balanced unto itself between characters of varied alignments and/or Strength or Craft orientation.

My schedule is still to full to turn back to other expansion projects on hold. In spare moments as a break, I may turn my attention to some 4ER variations of a few old and fallow AltEnds made by others in the past for 2E. Or rather the ones that appeal to me, my group, or my long standing test groups.
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JC Hendee
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This AltEnd is an adaptation and update of Sam Wallace's "Crown Prince" for Talisman 2E (http://talisman.clift.org/sam/rules/alt_end.htm). It takes a bit to setup when it is drawn, but as a random AltEnd mixed with others, it's not that much fuss that often. As always, right-click / save the mini and the same HERE to review / get the AltEnd card that goes with it.
 
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JC Hendee
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This is a repost/relink, because I moved all images that used to be found in this old topic. The zip packages for my Alternative Endings and minis, as well as minis created for Azoic's AltEnds, now can be found at Fantastic Diversions or by going directly to its F.D. Downloads Page. I am waiting to see if some previous uploads appear in the BGG files sections before I upload this package here.
 
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