GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
8,451 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
20 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
6 
 Thumb up
 Hide
27 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Do online versions of games (BSW) "ruin" them? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
I noticed that I am going through the following cycle with games:

1. Play a new game online...
2. Buying a real life version
3. Continue to play it excessively online for a month or so...
4. Become a bit tired of it, after as little as a month or so, and then not wanting to play it in real life because people I game with do not have similar experience level, and not really fair match,


I am starting to think games I play online I should not buy copies of, because either I get bored with them, or I start to get too much experience compared to people I game with, as in not really fair or fun....

For example, I played about 250x games of Dominion on BSW, now I feel I have lost interest in it generally speaking, burn out, and its not really fair or fun to play it with family members who only play it once in awhile. If I didn't play it online, those 250 games would have taken years to play in real life.

Not sure what the point of this post is.




4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jumbit
China
Zhejiang
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yes, burn-out is real. Novelty is why people buy game after game...something new, something unusual. "That same old game again? It's boring!" One game is only good for so many plays. There are exceptions to this rule but those are the classics and they don't come along often.

Yes, online games go much faster...much less talking, no spilled drinks, no watching TV in the next room. This is why online poker players are such demons, they are able to play so many more hands in the same amount of time and thus gain decades of experience in mere years. Burnout happens much faster this way.

What's wrong with having experience and winning the game? Isn't that the point of playing? To demonstrate that your gamer's skill is superior to others? It's a real ego boost, especially to those of us who don't have much else going on in life. If you want to sit around and drink beer and chat, go to the bar where you won't ruin my cards with your greasy cheetos fingers.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
IrishFire Herself
United States
Indiana
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
jumbit wrote:

What's wrong with having experience and winning the game? Isn't that the point of playing? To demonstrate that your gamer's skill is superior to others? It's a real ego boost, especially to those of us who don't have much else going on in life. If you want to sit around and drink beer and chat, go to the bar where you won't ruin my cards with your greasy cheetos fingers.


For some people, sure, but I for one am sick of winning at all my own games. It was more fun to win someone else's and demonstrate my prowess at a game I clearly hadn't just played ten zillion times.

For many people having a worthy opponent is much, much more fun.

Edit: to answer the question, in the rare instance that your gaming friends are equally obsessed and also honing their online skills, no, it does not ruin the experience. But having your skills run too far ahead of the group can be a problem. I'm lucky to play with the gamers I do, and find it tricky when I pick up folks who are new to the game. They have to enjoy getting creamed.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Max Maloney
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
"If trees could scream, would we be so cavalier about cutting them down? We might, if they screamed all the time, for no good reason." -Jack Handey
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I just don't much see the point of online board games. I like board games to be a physical, tactile experience. When I want to play online, there are a million games designed to be played on a computer with something for every taste.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jumbit wrote:
What's wrong with having experience and winning the game? Isn't that the point of playing? To demonstrate that your gamer's skill is superior to others? It's a real ego boost, especially to those of us who don't have much else going on in life.


I'm trying to figure out if this is meant seriously or ironically. I think it's a tragedy if your ego and self-esteem really do derive from playing a game a hundred times and using that experience to crush your friend who's played twice. If that's the best thing you've got going for you in life, can't you invest the same amount of energy in making something else happen? Maybe even something that actually contributes to society? It's not like the world is lacking in problems to be solved.
9 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
"that's a smith and wesson, and you've had your six"
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I only find that the "people" on BSW ruin games.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Stanton
England
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
From what I can tell, the Dominion on BSW is a cut down version- doesn't have all the cards. So in that particular case, there's plenty more to be learnt from playing with the real version.
Playing online allows you to play against a greater variety of players & a greater number so should, in theory, lead to less burnout as you're not playing against the same set of players the whole time.
I find that playing against people when you know how they're going to play & could almost play for them is less appealing & is more likely to lead to burn-out.
The experience side of things doesn't really worry me. I'll treat the game differently depending on my opponents. If they're cut-throat out to win at all costs (within the game of course) then I will play in that style. If it more of a relaxed evening with friends, I'll play a more relaxed game, maybe try out some new things, see if another route to winning works.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jumbit
China
Zhejiang
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think it's a tragedy if your ego and self-esteem really do derive from playing a game a hundred times and using that experience to crush your friend who's played twice.

So you've never seen this before? This is something new and novel in your gamer's experience? How about lording it over others on a message board, is that sad too?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig Phillips
United States
Quincy
Illinois
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
viol8r wrote:
I noticed that I am going through the following cycle with games:

1. Play a new game online...
2. Buying a real life version
3. Continue to play it excessively online for a month or so...
4. Become a bit tired of it, after as little as a month or so, and then not wanting to play it in real life because people I game with do not have similar experience level, and not really fair match,


I am starting to think games I play online I should not buy copies of, because either I get bored with them, or I start to get too much experience compared to people I game with, as in not really fair or fun....

For example, I played about 250x games of Dominion on BSW, now I feel I have lost interest in it generally speaking, burn out, and its not really fair or fun to play it with family members who only play it once in awhile. If I didn't play it online, those 250 games would have taken years to play in real life.

Not sure what the point of this post is.






I am right there with you. I love Dominion when I bought it, played a ton on BSW, and just traded it away for Caylus.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Doc Bullseye
United States
Brownsburg
Indiana
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
MWChapel wrote:
I only find that the "people" on BSW ruin games.


That's how I feel about the interface...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Solomon M. Green
Australia
Armadale
Victoria
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Far from it. They greatly enhance and speed up the game and give the opportunity to play when opponents cannot be found in real life. Online environments are a great place to meet people from all over the world and have fun at something you all enjoy.

Do you want a better online experience ? Such as in BSW ?
Then make yourself part of the community. Find others of similar interests and language background. Playing with these people regularly will prove less problematic than random opponents with random levels of tolerances and skills.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lori
United States
Durham
North Carolina
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
It seems to me that online play strips away many dimensions of the usual experience of a boardgame. The face-to-face, personal interaction; the tactile experience of setting up and playing with the physical game; the normal chronological experience of the time space in which the game unfolds; all this and more is discarded, and a richly textured gaming experience is reduced to a kernel of strategic decision-making. With the "inessentials" (?) pared away, the online gamer can consume many more of these kernels in a more concentrated time, and if that remaining core is the only or principal thing you value, then online gaming may give you something worth having. On the other hand, I find online gaming unappealing because I value everything that's lost in that process.

As for the issue of getting "ahead" of your real-life opponents through online play, and creating a skill/experience disparity that may ruin your/their enjoyment of the real-life game, I think that's a very real concern, but also depends on many other variables. For instance, do you play with people who have significantly more or less leisure time to devote to gaming than you do? Do you play mostly with a small, stable group, or do you play in a variety of gaming venues, encountering people of diverse backgrounds and experience levels? Do you play mainly just the hot new games, or do you ever play games that are "new to you" but have been around for some time? It's pretty common even in real-life-only gaming to be gaming with people who have significantly more or less experience with the game than you, often for reasons that you can't really help. It does seem to me, though, that online gaming provides an artificial acceleration that exceeds any variation possible in real life.

Clearly I'm not a fan of online gaming, but YMMV. On the burnout issue, I have almost zero problem with that, because the diversity of games that I like and the limitations on my time and opportunities for gaming combine to ensure that no game goes into such heavy rotation that I get sick of it. Personally, I see burnout as a bad thing, because I add games to my collection only when I expect to continue to enjoy them over the long term, and if I get sick of a game I own, it means I've made an error in judgment. But I think it's also a legitimate view to regard games as consumables, and buy with the intent to play some finite number of times, then be done with the game and get rid of it. Or of course, if you play it online, you'd never have to own it at all. So maybe you should just think through your priorities. If online play is ruining your enjoyment of real-life play, do/would you get more overall enjoyment out of just playing a game online till you're done with it (and not buying a copy or playing in real life), or out of playing with your real-life gaming buddies (and not online)? Are there some games that would be more fun one way and some the other? Would it be fun to find new gaming partners who also play online, so you could have higher-level play in real life?

How long did it take you to get through your 250 games of Dominion on BSW? If only "a month or so," it seems like you were a little late to the Dominion party, and I wonder whether starting to play online was prompted by enjoying the game in real life? FWIW, I've been playing Dominion since before it first came out (first encountered the game in prototype form at a con), have played 203 times so far, all face-to-face, and am not tired of it at ALL. Still can't get enough.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Campbell
United States
Hesperia
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I guess I tend to not just play board games online against random people. I like to use it as a vehicle to play games with my friends between gaming sessions or to play with friends or family that live far away. If used in moderation I think online board games are a great idea.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jumbit wrote:
So you've never seen this before? This is something new and novel in your gamer's experience?


Yes, I think that's right. I've never met anyone that I thought was getting an ego boost from taking advantage of their greater experience to win games, or who thought it was more important to win than to have an enjoyable challenge. I've heard people accused of that, but I always thought it was an unfair accusation. Of course, you can never know what's in people's minds, unless they declare it. I've certainly never heard anyone say before that they enjoy boosting their egos by defeating players with less experience. So that is something new for me.

Quote:
How about lording it over others on a message board, is that sad too?


I don't feel that I'm lording it over anyone. I am giving advice that is the same advice that I give to myself and others. The last person I had an exchange somewhat like this with, eventually sent me a PM thanking me for encouraging him to get off his butt and do something more to improve his situation. So I'm willing to take the risk of disapproval in order to occasionally achieve something like that.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
jumbit wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
I think it's a tragedy if your ego and self-esteem really do derive from playing a game a hundred times and using that experience to crush your friend who's played twice.

So you've never seen this before? This is something new and novel in your gamer's experience? How about lording it over others on a message board, is that sad too?


Gonna have to agree with David on this one (again).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Christiansen
United States
Mount Pleasant
Michigan
flag msg tools
badge
OOK! OOK! OOK!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I play only on Yucata as I never want real time.

But only certain types of games lend themselves to that environment and they are decidedly NOT as much what I like playing face to face.

Take for example Dominion. I find it totally boring live. Not nearly enough interaction of any meaningful type. But I would play something like it online I suppose. St. Petersburg is an evern better example of same.

So Yucata fills very different need for me.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmb
viol8r wrote:

3. Continue to play it excessively online for a month or so...
4. Become a bit tired of it, after as little as a month or so, and then not wanting to play it in real life because people I game with do not have similar experience level, and not really fair match,

The "play it excessively" part seems to be a significant part of the problem. The burnout and the skill imbalance between you and a group of friends would also happen if you played it excessively with a different group of live friends, not online.

It's perfectly possible to play games online without racking up hundreds of plays in a month.

But I can sympathize with obsession for a game and playing the game a lot in a short time. I'm sure many of us have felt it many times! That can lead to burnout with physical plays as well as online plays.

The problem of skill imbalance can come about for many reasons, not just online play. Maybe you're just a more experienced gamer and are better at analyzing games and their strategies. Maybe you enjoy talking about strategy with other experienced players and learning from them, while your casual gamer friends have no interest in that. Maybe you enjoy reading strategy articles and solving game position problems for practice. Maybe you continually think about the game in your free time while your casual gamers forget about it. That doesn't mean these activities "ruin" the game. Indeed, they seem to make the game more enjoyable and interesting, for you.

But yeah, it can mean you become stronger than some casual players you play with. The obvious approaches to that are:
1. Directly ask the casual gamer friends if it bothers them if you win more often - maybe it's not actually a problem!
2. Play lighter and more carelessly with them, or try wacky weird unorthodox strategies.
3. Play with a handicap, as is perfectly traditional between go players of unequal skill, and it's a pity that many non-go-gamers seem to think this solution is somehow unappealing or insulting or something.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Odin Wednesday

Indiana
msg tools
mbmbmb
Toc13 wrote:
From what I can tell, the Dominion on BSW is a cut down version- doesn't have all the cards. So in that particular case, there's plenty more to be learnt from playing with the real version.


Not exactly. It has the complete base set, and then only five kingdom cards each from the expansions. So you certainly do get the full experience of base Dominion (particularly if you exclude the expansion cards from your games), but not the full experience of Intrigue, Seaside, or Alchemy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Heckle Jekyll
United States
Knox
Pennsylvania
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
POKER seems to be doing better.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Shillinglaw
Canada
Kitchener
Ontario
flag msg tools
This is what I play.
badge
Vegatable Alien is perlexed by slab of meat.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't play games online, I do play the RftG AI quite a bit and let me tell you, it's spoiled me!

On the weekend, I played a few "real life" games of RftG. Unlike the AI, I don't have a program to automatically add up my military, categorize all my powers or deal all my explore cards!

This leads me to believe that I need to play more "real life" games of RftG before I forget all the rules!

However, this doesn't mean I stop playing the AI. Just more games with real people.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brandon M
United States
Branchburg
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I could never figure out the BSW interface, so I don't have that problem.

I've played some other games online, and rather than getting tired of them I've found that a bigger problem for me is that online gaming makes it so easy to keep track of everything in the game that it makes playing the physical game feel like a chore.

Examples -
Lost Cities - I don't have to add up my points, write them down between rounds, and I can easily see how many cards are left in the draw pile.

Race for the Galaxy - It won't let me forget to take any cards I'm entitled to take (I often forget explore powers), and it's easier to keep tabs on my opponent.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Carr
United States
Barre
Vermont
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
The solution is to get BSW like gameplay into a Microsoft Surface environment, so that you still play face to face, but you can play 20 games in an evening rather than 3 or 4.

That way everyone gets plenty of play experience quickly. You could still go home and play 100 more times before the next session, but this can help balance out the desire to do so.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
United States
Vancouver
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
Thanks for all the well thought out replies.


I think I have "ruined" the following games:

San Juan (AI program) .... real version is unplayed in my collection
RFTG (AI program)... real version I already traded for Alhambra
Peurto Rico (BSW)... real version unplayed in my collection
Dominion Base set (BSW) ... traded away for PR (which ended up getting "ruined" ha )
Carcassonne (asobrain) ... still play this in real world, but I do usually win, everybody complains that I win because I play online.
Catan (asobrain)... still play, but always win if we play cities and knights, but base catan my group is pretty competitive.

Probably more, but thats all I can think of right now off the top of my head.


My solution, for me personally, from now on:

1. If I play a game online, I will NOT buy a real life copy. Online games will be online games.

2. If I play a game at home, I will NOT play it online! (maybe just to learn it, but thats it! )

I think this should work.





1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J.L. Robert
United States
Sherman Oaks
California
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Follow me for wargames!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Personally, I despise online game play. I'm all for the face-to-face social interaction...the facial expressions, the gesticulation, the odd times when someone leans back and falls off his/her chair. It's those moments that make game playing memorable to me, not staring endlessly at game components or graphics.

I don't have a problem with people who play online casually. An hour after work isn't unreasonable.

But those OCD types who spend multiple hours at a time, speed-playing a game hundreds of times over. The types who have learned every nuance of the game that they've taken the time to master while others just play casually from time to time. The types that expertly tell everyone how to play the game rather than let each person create their own experience. The ones who berate others for not playing "optimally" according to the hundreds of plays by the various online experts. Those are the players that do ruin the experience of a game with me, as well as with others.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Philip Pack
Canada
Nanaimo
British Columbia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I have tried my best to make it so BSW (or other computerized versions) don't ruin my real game experience. Most of the time I first used the computerized version to learn the game and see if it is of interest to me... that's what helped me confirm my purchases of Dominion, San Juan, Formula D and just recently Pandemic.

Otherwise I don't really play online too often. Most of my 'alone' gaming time is spent on the Xbox 360 and Wii with video games. Those are the games I like to play when it's just my self wanting to play something.

There are occasions that I feel the want to play a specific board game that I haven't had a chance to play in person recently, and then will play on BSW or another computerized version. Formula D is the most common computerized version for me to play alone (or online if RacerLine was still around). The AI in the Java Formula De is very good, and most times it is very difficult for me to get a good sized group together to make it worth while to bring out my hard copy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.