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Subject: Thanks for Rating Images rss

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Scott Alden
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Appreciate all the work you guys and gals have been doing on rating images.

When I look at the list of images, the pleasing ones are near the front and the not-so pleasing ones aren't.

Easy as that.

It's just a ranking system so we can get some representative pictures on the game pages instead of the random way that's in there now.

Oh, here kissdevilsoblueyukgulp
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Scott Alden
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Thanks go to Kevin Wood for all the great smilies!
 
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Play Games - Interact - Have Fun!
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Personalized Smilies??
Individual Geeks now have their own Smilie?? Hmmm... We all know who the devil one is...and that next one kinda looks like chad's avatar....and surely the next one is - errr... oh wait... they are just additions! Ahhhh... gotcha!


Aldie wrote:

When I look at the list of images, the pleasing ones are near the front and the not-so pleasing ones aren't.

Easy as that.


Great job with the picture ratings btw and I love how you cut through all the "controversy" regarding ratings with that simple reply!
 
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Iain K
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And thank you Aldie.
Finally a Smilie I can relate to . . .

devil

PS - & re: your new "title" - I saw the "Prince's Bride" yesterday (on VH1 !??) and you were right many months ago, Inigo Montoya does indeed say "You killed my father. Prepare to die." I thought of our discussion the moment I heard Inigo . . .

Warmest regards, and the occassional gulp

I
 
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Mark McEvoy
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If the point is to get representative pictures up-front ... why make the ratings publicly viewable? Why not just keep them as a hidden number, only used internally by the database in deciding which image to show as default?

Having the number visible is a little demoralizing when it just tells some contributors that their submissions are unwanted and unappreciated. I think keeping this around will impact the number of database submissions. Nobody likes being graded, being told that they don't measure up to someone's definition of 'passable'.

I have some images of an early edition of "Skirrid" to upload. But I guess I shouldn't upload them. I might fail again.
 
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Stefan Alexander
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Keep the ratings visible!!
I think it's important to have the ratings visible. First of all, if users can see the kinds of images people like, and the kinds they don't like, they will be more likely to upload the former. I know you could do this just by the order they're in, but you don't get the exact detail.

Second, the "hot or not" rating feature is really fun. REALLY fun. I don't know why it's so fun, but I've wasted far too much time on it.
 
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Nasty McHaggis
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Every time I read a post complaining about the picture ratings, I laugh.

Oh yeah, and Baby Jesus cries, too.
 
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Corey Butler
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a concern
I'm not sure that the representative pictures will necessarily go to the front, considering that many of us are rating on artistic merit more than representativeness. Last time I checked, the highest rated carcassone picture was the extreme meeple closeup, which really gives no idea how the game is played.
 
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Jerry Dziuba
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It's Monday and I'm feeling cranky...
I think the geek is at the saturation point where no matter what addition/revision Aldie or Derk do there will be a portion of the users rising up to complain about it.

It's predictable and in a strange way comforting.

I like the ratings being visible. If you upload a stinker you need to have your nose pushed into it so you don't do it again. If you can't handle rejection, you just haven't been rejected enough. Trust me, I speak from experience.

I don't think the "best" picture for a game needs to be representative of anything. It just needs to be an attention grabber. If a centerfold shot of a meeple does that - so be it.

Smileys/emoticons give me bloody stools.
 
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Mark McEvoy
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I think the geek is at the saturation point where no matter what addition/revision Aldie or Derk do there will be a portion of the users rising up to complain about it.

I don't think a soul would complain about, say, a journal reply history (to easily revisit journals you've posted to, because once they've fallen off the front page...)


If you upload a stinker you need to have your nose pushed into it so you don't do it again.

And is that the goal here? Better to have, say, no images at all for a game than to have an image that the Art Police determined was too functional and not artistic enough?

Well, I'm glad I've had my 'nose pushed into it' - I now know better than to try to contribute images to the database that would otherwise have no image.
 
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Julien G.
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That's cool,
but I maintain (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geekjournal.php3?action=viewcom...) the 10 point scale is confusing and a source of completely disharmonized ratings by users. The lack of official rating guide is a problem.

I, for one, won't rate any picture, and be glad to dismiss any ratings on mine. devil

As a sidenote: to the people who seriously "laugh" or can't stand the posts about the picture ratings system: give me a break. Most of those posts don't "complain"; they try to point out - what they consider to be - weaknesses of the system, in an argumentated way, and propose solutions. They want to make the thing better.

On the other hand, those who serioulsy post to only denigrate the so called "complainers" are being dismissive without bringing anything to the discussion. Since when a little debate is unhealthy?

kiss (love'ya all)
 
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Jerry Dziuba
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Well, I'm glad I've had my 'nose pushed into it' - I now know better than to try to contribute images to the database that would otherwise have no image.

Nope, that not the way to look at it. You should look at it as a challenge to improve and keep submitting trying to post a shot that grabs a 10.

If you lose a game do you just quit playing?

C'mon, use it as an incentive to do better!
 
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Mark McEvoy
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You should look at it as a challenge to improve and keep submitting trying to post a shot that grabs a 10.

I'm not going to go to art school or take night classes in photography in order to better make my BGG submissions match the standards of the anonymous raters here. For all I know, their rating is based more on their mood, or their disdain for a specific game/genre, or the artistic merit of the game bits and board art, than it is on anything I might personally be able to improve upon. A pure number doesn't even tell me *where* I could/should improve.

If you lose a game do you just quit playing?

If I lose a game of arbitrary and unexplained scoring, without any insight as to what strategies might lead to more success, I would usually choose to play a different game next time.
 
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John Squires
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cry nobody likes my pictures either

Please don't take ratings too personally. With so much great information on the BGG the last thing I really look for is who uploaded a picture. Also, remember: One man's trash is another's treasure. Or a better analogy would be to think of all the renown artists who never sold their art during thier lifetime.

I like the ratings. It's cool to be able to see what pictures are most liked. I've also found some interesting games I may of never come across through the hot or not function.

My advice is if you want to appease the BGG majority, there's now a measuring stick for you to study. If you love your pictures but hate how others rate them, be a maverick, don't change a thing.
 
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Nasty McHaggis
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I don't wish to spend a lot of energy getting involved in a debate about the merits of the rating system. My point, albeit made snidely, is that there seems to be quite a few people getting all wadded up about a simple feature.

I'm not talking about you specifically.

I'm also not against some healthy debate amongst those who care about the subject. However, I am honestly amazed (and I'm not easily amazed) at the outpouring of seemingly intense dialogue regarding the addition of a simple feature of admittedly questionable usefulness. Some folks just need to take a couple steps back, take a deep breath, get things back into proper perspective and have fun.

If you don't agree with the ratings system, then don't look at it. Also, if your feelings are hurt because a couple of people rated your recently uploaded masterpiece of photographic artistry poorly, then you REALLY need a generous dose of aforementioned perspective.

And I've just decided, right now, that I will hereby ignore all posts and threads on the subject. Including this one. I'd rather be spending my limited time and energy reading about someone's experience with a game.
 
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John Squires
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bravo
Ken,
I know you're not going to read this but good point!

 
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jefF, There are some who call me... DuneKitteh
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Is there any way you guys can adjust (I would actually go so far as to say "fix") the Pictures By Rating page where the pictures don't actually start to appear there until at least "X" amount of people have rated them? You do it for the games ratings themselves (and while I won't go so far as to say 30 ratings like the games, I'd say at LEAST 10 picture ratings before the general viewers see it ranked before they get to "shoot" at it) - it just seems right now that the picture ratings system is quickly becoming a mob mentality thing and a game in itself of "knock the highest rated pictures with only a few actual ratings down as quick as we can". I'm starting to rethink my original opinion on the ratings thing as I think it's now adversely affecting some people's desire to contribute more than stimulating it.
 
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Brett Myers
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Jeebus, you're crying an awful lot over a single 3 rating on one of your pics. One person doesn't like your picture so you're gonna take your ball and go home? Don't be such a little girl.

I checked out your pics after reading that sob story and I thought they were ok, if a little dark. My main beef was that they were too big. If I have to scroll sideways to see the whole picture, I don't like it. If it takes two days to download at home, I don't like it. Otherwise they were fine representations.

Personally, I'm a little tired of the macro-meeple pics. Yeah, they were neat at first but one "Attack of the 50 Foot Meeple" is pretty much like the other. It's just not that interesting or creative. Maybe you could think up some new Monopoly themes.

<-- wearing my cranky pants.
 
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jefF, There are some who call me... DuneKitteh
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Oops, move along - nothing to see here
Actually, I see you're already way ahead of me on that and have already set it at a min 5 ratings. blush - teach me to actually check a feature that DAY before I comment on it.

Keep up to good work.
 
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John Lopez
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Chill pills, all around.
I have uploaded only a few pictures, and they are not of the greatest quality. I was using a fairly low resolution camera, and I think they came out at 4-5 rating level (via my rating metrics). However, if it gets a whole bunch of "1"s, I could really care less: they are the only pictures for the game. Doesn't really matter what they are rated if they are the only two pictures, now does it. If someone uploads pictures of higher quality, then even better: the quality of the Geek is improved. I really see this as a win-win situation. The only way that this could be a loss for me is if I was somehow my self worth based on ratings of pictures I took.

Lets see... nope, my ego is still big as ever.

 
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Mark McEvoy
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Jeebus, you're crying an awful lot over a single 3 rating on one of your pics. One person doesn't like your picture so you're gonna take your ball and go home? Don't be such a little girl.

My complaint is more about the principle of people's basis for rating rather than my own personal ratings (though when I started this 'crusade', only two of my images had been rated, one 4 and one 3... some have been since pulled up by higher ratings).

My main beef was that they were too big. If I have to scroll sideways to see the whole picture, I don't like it. If it takes two days to download at home, I don't like it. Otherwise they were fine representations.

I uploaded them at 28.8k. The board help only specifies a minimum resolution - how is a user supposed to 'guess' what other users' optimal resolutions are? What if I submit an image at 800x600, only to be graded low by people who wish I had submitted a higher resolution one to view on their 1600x1200 fullscreen browser?

Personally, I'm a little tired of the macro-meeple pics.

While I don't especially mind them, the fact is they're being 'graded' higher than "useful" images. A close-up of The Meeple That Ate Sheboygan probably shouldn't be ranked ahead of a gameplay shot in terms of being a representative image for Carcasonne. If the admins are going to use these ratings to automate some default-image decisionmaking, perhaps people should be paying more attention to the appropriateness and usefulness of an image, rather than its photographic excellence or artistic merit.
 
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Daniel Karp
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Rate Pics or Not
I particularly like the new rate pics or not feature. One suggestion: I find it impossible to rate the pics without looking at the full image. If there were an option in the rate or not page to always show the image full size, rather than having to open it in a separate window, I would certainly use it.

I'm looking forward to being able to rate all of the items on the BGG, slashdot style. being able to find the best and most relevant posts and information may make the BGG even more useful than it already is, if that is possible.
 
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Norman Petry
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Rating Systems are a Mistake...
(NOTE: I already posted this in another journal, but after re-reading this thread I think it belongs here. I hope Aldie will see it.)

I personally don't see the value in rating photos, as it does cause hard feelings among some of those who have pictures that were rated poorly. Rating games is different -- in that case, we are rating manufactured products, rather than the work of volunteers. While publishers might not like low ratings either, that won't stop them from publishing. The profits from game sales provides them with sufficient motivation.

For volunteers who contribute to this site, the motivations are different. I'm sure most of the people who submitted photos thought they were making a contribution to this community. Someone who gets a bunch of '1' ratings may just decide "why bother, if my work isn't appreciated", and stop contributing. Many of the games in the database have few (or no) pictures, so even poor pictures can be quite valuable. I'd hate to see the 'geek lose such contributions.

In my opinion, there are much better ways to determine things like display rank-order for photos, that would not require any additional work by the site's users, and don't have all the problems associated with rating systems. The information in the database itself can often be processed to glean information about the relative popularity of photos, geeklists, etc. Crude heuristics can be created from the existing data that would be good enough for their intended use. Once relative popularity has been inferred from the data, the order can be used to determine what to prioritize for display purposes, what to cull, etc.

For example, the relative popularity of photos for a particular game can be inferred from the number of times each image has been used in a geeklist. While this isn't perfect (some geeklists choose particular [poor] photos as their subject), most list creators choose images they like. There is enough information in these choices to determine a crude rank-order that is good enough for determining a suitable display order.

For geeklists, one measure of quality that could be used for evaluation is the number of times each geeklist is added to someone's 'favourites' list. Other information, like the number of pageviews/month, date of last update/comment, etc. could be combined with this information to create a heuristic for quality. For geeklists who's 'quality index' falls below a certain threshhold, authors could be sent a message asking them to consider updating/deleting/marking private their geeklist. For lists which remain below the quality threshhold for more than X months, the system could automatically mark them private and/or delete them (with suitable warnings) in order to reduce the "noise" on this site. There are countless ways of creating such heuristics, and policies based on the results, but the important point is that they don't NEED to be perfect -- they just need to provide a rough guide to organizing the data better. The underlying heuristics can always be tweaked to produce better results as the system evolves.

This approach to content management does not alienate and/or demoralize users, and doesn't require any additional work from them either. Once built, a system like this works automatically. Building it would require some effort, but probably less than that required to create a complete rating system which requires data entry forms, reports, queries, etc. (especially since it requires little or no user interface -- just background processing). I've suggested some of these ideas before, but received no feedback. It seems that Aldie prefers to make greater use of ratings to address the "noise" problem, but I hope he'll reconsider this approach. I think ratings -- for anything other than games -- are a mistake for this site, and a waste of time for users. I won't be submitting ratings for photos.
 
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Brett Myers
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thatmarkguy
how is a user supposed to 'guess' what other users' optimal resolutions are? What if I submit an image at 800x600, only to be graded low by people who wish I had submitted a higher resolution one to view on their 1600x1200 fullscreen browser?

While I don't especially mind them, the fact is they're being 'graded' higher than "useful" images. A close-up of The Meeple That Ate Sheboygan probably shouldn't be ranked ahead of a gameplay shot in terms of being a representative image for Carcasonne. If the admins are going to use these ratings to automate some default-image decisionmaking, perhaps people should be paying more attention to the appropriateness and usefulness of an image, rather than its photographic excellence or artistic merit.

I agree with you that the more useful picture should get the coveted front page display. For me personally, that would be an image of the box cover–that's what I like to see immediately. For you, it might be something else.

Eventually, the image that is most useful to the most folks will be the one we see. It may be Meeplesaurus Rex, it may be my box cover, it may be your representative layout - the point is, we'll know when the tribe has spoken.
 
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