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Subject: Whose Responsibility is Shipping rss

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Darrell Gonser

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I sometimes have higher standards than are normal when it comes to doing business with others - for that reason I was hoping some might way in on what is acceptable.

A recent purchase of a used Die Macher game was shipped to me in bubble wrap and brown wrapping paper. Upon arrival the upper lid was dented in multiple spots and the right corner was crushed.

All components are in acceptable condition and complete, so the game is playable.

The sellers first response was for me to contact the shipper - my response is that the game was not packaged correctly.

Whose responsible? Buyer or Seller? and if its the Buyer what should the compensation be for not packaging it correctly.

Thanks for your help.
 
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White Dragon Enterprises
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Hello Darrell!

The game should have been put in a box with bubble wrap or peanuts. A used game is hard to evaluate since the damaged could have occured before shipping. However, the normal practice (USA) unless otherwise agreed upon is that you accept responsibility once the package is put in the hands of the shipper. If you paid with a credit card, you can always do a chargeback but there is no guarantee you will "win" here. PayPal will not help if outside of eBay since the package was delivered. Hope that helps...

W. Rogers Abbott III
White Dragon Enterprises, Inc.
 
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norman rule
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Goosekeeper wrote:
The sellers first response was for me to contact the shipper - my response is that the game was not packaged correctly.


This might be one of those situations where you're both right... but nobody comes out happy in the end.

One thing I've started doing with private sales is to ask up front how the item will be packed. If I don't like the answer, I can request a different packing method. The seller might say OK or "well, that will cost more," and I can decide if it's worth it.

If they don't pack it as promised (and you have it in writing), that makes any claim you have stronger. If they DO pack it as promised and it gets damaged, then the seller is out of the picture for any claims. That doesn't mean I have any better chance to recover from the shipping company, but at least I don't have that bad taste in my mouth that the seller is responsible.
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Curt Carpenter
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And there's always seller feedback. Most people value their online reputation.
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Kelley E.
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If the seller is adamant that the shipping company screwed up then they have to make the claim, not you. They paid the shipping company for the service of shipping so they are the only one that can get any kind of reimbursement.

However, it sounds like they're just trying to blow you off. If this is true then it's unlikely that anything you say will matter.
 
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Jeff
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I had the misfortune of purchasing a large boxed game from an individual off of eBay - got a great deal on it, too. until it arrived.

The seller had simply wrapped the game box in plain brown paper and dropped it into the mail. The end result was significant damage to the box when it arrived.

Complaints to the seller were answered with "You're lucky to get such a good price on the game, anyway!" (of course, in my mind, the condition played a big part in how good the deal was...)

In the end, the normal escalation occurred. I demanded compensation for the crappy packaging, the seller said ... well, we won't say what he really said, but it boiled down to 'No'. I threatened negative feedback unless an agreement could be reached, he countered by threatening negative feedback for me in retaliation (this was back when sellers could still leave negatives for buyers...)

In the end, I was powerless - and decided that leaving him negative feedback, while having the slight advantage of perhaps warning someone else of this seller, wouldn't really offset the disadvantage of picking up negative feedback myself. (Sorry, team, I played selfish on that one!) So nothing was done.

Hate to share a sad tale - but I was unable to find any path to proceed. Hope your story turns out better, but I fear you, too, may be out of luck.
 
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Greg Aleknevicus
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jeffreyac wrote:
In the end, I was powerless - and decided that leaving him negative feedback, while having the slight advantage of perhaps warning someone else of this seller, wouldn't really offset the disadvantage of picking up negative feedback myself. (Sorry, team, I played selfish on that one!) So nothing was done.

Perhaps the reason you got burned by that seller is that all the previous people he shipped games to felt the same way.
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Paul DeStefano
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Goosekeeper wrote:
Buyer or Seller?


As a buyer, it is your responsibility to request proper packaging. The seller made no promise of anything else. I always ask how it will be packed if I care.
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David Douglas
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This happened to me just yesterday!

I bought a FFG boxed game on eBay that was listed with Flat Rate box shipping. The game showed up wrapped in brown paper with small pieces literally falling out of the rip. The game wasn't bagged or anything.

On top of that, the game was advertised as complete--75% of the cards and tokens were missing as well as a few of the figures. The rip in the box couldn't account for that much spillage.

Oh, I also got some leaves, a Department of the Interior pamphlet, Dorito crumbs, and a smashed prescription pill in the box (used to combat gall stones). And to think that I assumed that 15 pictures of the contents were sufficient! I hope I get a refund.
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Curt Carpenter
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Geosphere wrote:
As a buyer, it is your responsibility to request proper packaging.

I completely disagree with that. If the seller doesn't make mention of any missing components, the implication is that they are complete. The buyer shouldn't need to ask. If the seller doesn't make any mention of packing method, the implication is that it will be proper. The buyer shouldn't need to ask.

Which is not to say that as the buyer it's a bad idea to ask. But that's just taking precautions against crappy sellers, not transferring responsibility.
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Jeff
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greg wrote:
jeffreyac wrote:
In the end, I was powerless - and decided that leaving him negative feedback, while having the slight advantage of perhaps warning someone else of this seller, wouldn't really offset the disadvantage of picking up negative feedback myself. (Sorry, team, I played selfish on that one!) So nothing was done.

Perhaps the reason you got burned by that seller is that all the previous people he shipped games to felt the same way.


Yes, a valid point. Always the interesting philosophical question - take one for the team (and the team, in this case, being hypothetical strangers who may or may not benefit from your actions) or do what's best for oneself...

In this case I chose me. I never really liked you guys anyway....
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Art Bugorski
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jeffreyac wrote:
Yes, a valid point. Always the interesting philosophical question - take one for the team (and the team, in this case, being hypothetical strangers who may or may not benefit from your actions) or do what's best for oneself...


Yes that is generally known as Tragedy of the Commons or in a sense a Nash Equilibrium etc.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
As a buyer, it is your responsibility to request proper packaging. The seller made no promise of anything else. I always ask how it will be packed if I care.

LOL, sorry, but that's a load of crap.

All other things being equal, it is the sellers responsibility to package properly. It is not the buyers responsibility to "request proper packaging", LOL. That is, unless there is something in the item description which would cause the buyer to question the packaging method, in which case he would of course be smart to ask about it. But normally, all things being equal, it's most certainly the sellers responsibility. The seller's doing the packaging, is he not? How can it possibly be the buyers responsibility?

As for "caring" how it's packaged, of course the buyer fucking cares, otherwise would he buy the item?

Let me ask you something. If you bought something from a mail order company, would you expect proper packaging? Of course you would - and you wouldn't specifically ask for it either, you'd expect it matter of course.
Why should Ebay be any different?

In fact, the postal service (in the US) has minimum standards for packaging and simply wrapping something in bubble wrap and slapping some brown packing paper around that, as was apparently done in this case, does not meet that minimum standard as far as I know.
I think the private shippers have similar standards, if not even stricter ones.

The buyer's responsible for packaging...now I've heard everything.
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tim Tim TIm TIM TIMMY!!
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It's a box, for me it is no big deal, living in the frontier of Costa Rica I have friends bring games all in bags and get no original boxes for some for some of them, They still play fine.

I just traded a game with a BGG from Estonia, he just wrapped his own game in Paper and sent it, the box took no wear and tear so I guess I am lucky, but even if it was beat up I would care less to be honest - of course that is just me I can see how some people would care. but I let people eat and drink around my games, it is about having fun for me.

Game On'
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Paul DeStefano
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Da Debil wrote:
All other things being equal, it is the sellers responsibility to package properly.


As we have clearly seen in this thread, the definition of "Proper packaging" varies by individual.

Many sellers don't realize the value of a collectable game and the condition of the box. To them, paper is fine. If you don't tell them otherwise. why would they think to change it?

It is your responsibility to define proper packaging, or else you will have to accept their definition of proper packaging.

I stand firmly by that, mainly due to the practicality of it being the only way to be sure you get what you expect.
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Paul DeStefano
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Da Debil wrote:
Why should Ebay be any different?

Ebay is not the company you buy from. Its some dude who may have no idea of an item's value relating to its condition.
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Please simply answer the one question:

If you bought something from a mail order company, would you expect proper packaging?
Yes or no?
 
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Derry Salewski
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thereofone wrote:
It's always a trade off: Do you get accused of gouging for shipping when you insure it and send it priority or accused of being a shitty seller for sending it parcel post?


That really is the problem sometimes. But in the end, I only mark the shipping fees as way over priced (on ebay) so you might not have a five star rating, if I suspect that I'm being gouged a little (when it could be that they honestly think they're being extra careful with my packaging, though I think I can usually tell.) But if it gets to me damaged, and I'm not reimbursed, negative feedback is on the way. (And automatic neutral feedback for anyone who is too dumb to package something right, even if it looks like nothing was the matter. I had this guy shove 100 dollars worth of magic cards from 1993-4 into a soft sleeve, and stick it in an envelope. wtf.) But, yeah, I don't mind if my 100 dollar card has required insurance on it. I do mind when someone figures there is 2.00 worth of handling fees to ship me a 1.00 card with 2.50 shipping.

So, I dunno. In the USA postal system, at least, it's not that hard to package things so they wont get damaged, and it's not that expensive to buy the supplies in bulk at a shipping/office supply store.


 
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Louise Holden
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I would not expect to receive a game packaged so badly that a drop from hand height on a corner would damage it. That's pretty much the standard I would apply for doing my own packaging, too. Usually means bubblewrap reinforced with tape at the corners, sometimes means an external card wrapping or box if the game's fragile.
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Paul DeStefano
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Da Debil wrote:
Please simply answer the one question:

If you bought something from a mail order company, would you expect proper packaging?
Yes or no?


...no?

I've ordered enough mail order to know that if I don't specify it, sometimes I get crap packaging.

I would like to say it SHOULD be expected, but in truth, it isn't.

I've gotten clothing in envelopes and books in wax paper.

So, the easy option is cover yourself and ask about packaging.
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M Evan Brooks
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Part of the "deal" is that the product will be delivered in the condition "as advertised." If the product arrived damaged, then the buyer would have the right to return the item by claiming that it did not meet the conditions in which it was offered for sale,

I had a similar incident involving several hundred dollars worth of philatelic items which were delivered in an envelope both torn and wet. Of course, the contents were ruined. The vendor claimed that I would have to go through a claim with the delivery service (USPS). However, there was no "privity of contract" between the purchaser (me) and the delivery service.

Eventually, the vendor agreed to assume full responsibility -- which is where the legal responsibility does in fact reside.
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Paul DeStefano
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evanbrooks wrote:

Eventually, the vendor agreed to assume full responsibility -- which is where the legal responsibility does in fact reside.


The nasty edge here is that if the product were rare, as I assume yours was, money back is not satisfying as the product.
 
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Boards & Bits
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It's the seller's responsibility, but "buyer beware" was never so appropriate.

After receiving this package, when you go to bid on another item will you:

A. Expect the next person to do the right thing without prompting, then post another thread with the same complaint;

B. Expect the next person to do the same thing and just lower your expectations;

C. Contact the seller *before you buy the item* to make sure they will package so as to arrive without any damage.

You can blame the seller and try to get your money back, but after all of the stories we've heard (and now your personal experience), it's kind of a "fool me once" kind of thing.

Tom
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Jonathan Leech
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Geosphere wrote:
Goosekeeper wrote:
Buyer or Seller?


As a buyer, it is your responsibility to request proper packaging. The seller made no promise of anything else. I always ask how it will be packed if I care.

I'm sorry but I think this is nonsense. As someone who sells things on ebay I always make sure I package things properly so they will arrive safely. Only the seller can package the game and they should do so with care.
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Paul DeStefano
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jonnyalpha wrote:
should


Key word.
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