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Subject: Conservative. I am confused by the term rss

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CHAPEL
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I hear this a lot from people who talk about being a republican, that of being a conservative. And the term alone is so nebulous. Are you a religious conservative, that being you favor faith based initiatives. Or are you a fiscal conservative where you think that the government where the government should not burden the tax payer? Or both?

Which I just don't understand how they work together. If you are religious or in the case of the majority of Religious Conservatism in the US, some type of Christian, how does the infusion of christian philanthropy into the governing body match that of fiscal responsibility in the governing body. It seems like those two philosophies are an oxymoron in term?

I really don't think conservatism as a term can be used as an all encompassing philosophy when they conflict in this way.
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Ken
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"Religious Conservative" still strikes me as the wrong term. I think there's 3 main strips of conservatism running around:

Fiscal Conservatism
Social Conservatism
Governmental Conservatism

The first is reasonably self-explanatory. The second is what I think you mean by "religious conservatism" - "value voters" that have a particular view of how things should be that believe the government should pass laws to support that view. The third are those that reject the breadth and reach of government today and want it to shrink. Not because there's too much money running around, not because they object to particular social policies, but because they simply believe government has grown beyond its authorized powers and should be reduced to be closer to enumerated powers.

I think "conservatives" have some combination of all 3, and many moderates as well.
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CHAPEL
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perfalbion wrote:
The second is what I think you mean by "religious conservatism" - "value voters" that have a particular view of how things should be that believe the government should pass laws to support that view.


Isn't philanthropy the #1 "christian" value? Or are we talking "values" in a non-religious way?
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Peter Smalls
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I for real also dont get what conservative is. my dad says hes a conservative but hes also a liberalterian. i dont know what that is either but i think its like a conservative. im trying to get into politics but i dont know too much about it ecept some stuff from school and on the internet and some from what my uncle says.
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Wray Cason
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MWChapel wrote:
Isn't philanthropy the #1 "christian" value? Or are we talking "values" in a non-religious way?
Where you say "philanthropy", I would say "charity". That has doctrinal implications beyond the conventional notion of charity. The conventional notion is fine for this conversation though. Charity is the business of Christians, not government. Any Christian notion of "government philanthropy" is warped and misguided Christianity as far as I'm concerned.
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Jorge Montero
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Many people should learn the difference between conservative and reactionary.
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Wray Cason
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VampireCobra wrote:
I for real also dont get what conservative is. my dad says hes a conservative but hes also a liberalterian. i dont know what that is either but i think its like a conservative. im trying to get into politics but i dont know too much about it ecept some stuff from school and on the internet and some from what my uncle says.
"Liberal" is equally mushy. I say take the terms with a grain of salt and try to understand what your dad and other are really saying and advocating. In time you will gain a reasonable sense of what people mean. By that time, the terms will have morphed subtly into something else and the confusion will continue.
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hibikir wrote:
Many people should learn the difference between conservative and reactionary.


It seems both parties have become reactionary lately. soblue
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Dane Peacock
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VampireCobra wrote:
im trying to get into politics but i dont know too much about it ecept some stuff from school and on the internet and some from what my uncle says.


You must feel right at home here in RSP then.
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CHAPEL
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Wrayman wrote:
Charity is the business of Christians, not government.


Whoah. That just blew my mind. So you are able to pick and choose "which" values to give to the government?

Passing laws against same sex marriage = good government initiated value.

Passing laws for being charitable to those in need = bad government initiated value.

Kind of weak.
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Wray Cason
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MWChapel wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
Charity is the business of Christians, not government.


Whoah. That just blew my mind. So you are able to pick and choose "which" values to give to the government?

Passing laws against same sex marriage = good government initiated value.

Passing laws for being charitable to those in need = bad government initiated value.

Kind of weak.
Choosing which values to give to the government is the essence of politics, isn't it? I don't understand your point.
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CHAPEL
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Wrayman wrote:

Choosing which values to give to the government is the essence of politics, isn't it? I don't understand your point.


I didn't think christian values were a "choice". Either you follow them or you don't. You don't understand my point, but I don't understand how you can be called a christian. It's all in, or nothing. How's that for politics?
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Dave Nellis
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Conservative means not using all your ammunition in foreign countries on people you don't approve of, so when you come home you have some left over to use on the people you don't approve of.
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Wray Cason
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MWChapel wrote:
Wrayman wrote:

Choosing which values to give to the government is the essence of politics, isn't it? I don't understand your point.


I didn't think christian values were a "choice". Either you follow them or you don't. You don't understand my point, but I don't understand how you can be called a christian. It's all in, or nothing. How's that for politics?
That's interesting. Thanks for fleshing out your perspective there. I am curious why you see Christianity that way. It is nothing like that in my view and experience. Christianity is all about choice. Which denomination is best? Which doctrine do I believe? What acts will I engage in? What principles should I uphold? These choices and more comprise the life of a Christian. Would you mind explaining your point of view a bit more?
 
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Daniel Edwards
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Combining the two philosophies you are referring to seems to make the implicit assumption that you can and should have private charities replace the role of government in providing a "basic safety net" (noting that this has different conotations for different people).

Practically in the year 2010 with a society with many different religions and many different views on charitable giving this seems rather bonkers unless your goal is to basically eliminate social welfare entirely.
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Wrayman wrote:
Christianity is all about choice.


I don't see this at all.

Once you're in the higher ups and different denominations openly clash about who is correct, there is no choice at all.

Christianity is rules. It is not a buffet where you take what you want.

Some denominations follow saints. Some do not. That is it. They each view the other as wrong. While you can theoretically choose the denomination, you are simply choosing what choices are premade for you.

What principals you uphold are not your choice at all. You choose a denomination that already has those choices.

This is a tremendous distinction, even though it sounds like subtle semantics.
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Wray Cason
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thereofone wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
That's interesting. Thanks for fleshing out your perspective there. I am curious why you see Christianity that way. It is nothing like that in my view and experience. Christianity is all about choice. Which denomination is best? Which doctrine do I believe? What acts will I engage in? What principles should I uphold? These choices and more comprise the life of a Christian. Would you mind explaining your point of view a bit more?


Where did you pick up that argument style? Could you type more words without taking a definable position? How can I shift the burden of the proof onto anyone that doesn't agree with me?
The burden of proof doesn't exist here. We are sharing our respective points of view, that is all.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
What principals you uphold are not your choice at all. You choose a denomination that already has those choices.


No.

You act like a Christian is choosing a political party.

Christianity is about following Jesus, not a denomination.
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quozl wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
What principals you uphold are not your choice at all. You choose a denomination that already has those choices.


No.

You act like a Christian is choosing a political party.

Christianity is about following Jesus, not a denomination.


I was using Wray's terms of denomination. He claimed they were choices. If that's so, then I'm pointing out how all you do is choose your restrictions.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
I was using Wray's terms of denomination. He claimed they were choices. If that's so, then I'm pointing out how all you do is choose your restrictions.


If you choose a denomination and chosse to follow the dictates of that denomination. Most people don't do the first and of those that do, most don't do the second.
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quozl wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
I was using Wray's terms of denomination. He claimed they were choices. If that's so, then I'm pointing out how all you do is choose your restrictions.


If you choose a denomination and chosse to follow the dictates of that denomination. Most people don't do the first and of those that do, most don't do the second.


I agree.

Those weren't the ground rules as set here, but I agree.
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myopia wrote:
Combining the two philosophies you are referring to seems to make the implicit assumption that you can and should have private charities replace the role of government in providing a "basic safety net" (noting that this has different conotations for different people).

Practically in the year 2010 with a society with many different religions and many different views on charitable giving this seems rather bonkers unless your goal is to basically eliminate social welfare entirely.
I assume that that was directed at me. I believe that government has an interest in providing a basic safely net that doesn't have much to do with charity. It is not an all or nothing matter. There are sticky details involved. As a matter of principle, I stand by my statement. That does not mean however, that I think government should do nothing to aid people.
 
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Geosphere wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
Christianity is all about choice.


I don't see this at all.

Once you're in the higher ups and different denominations openly clash about who is correct, there is no choice at all.

Christianity is rules. It is not a buffet where you take what you want.

Some denominations follow saints. Some do not. That is it. They each view the other as wrong. While you can theoretically choose the denomination, you are simply choosing what choices are premade for you.

What principals you uphold are not your choice at all. You choose a denomination that already has those choices.

This is a tremendous distinction, even though it sounds like subtle semantics.
I respectfully suggest that you don't understand the faith of a great many people.
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Wrayman wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Wrayman wrote:
Christianity is all about choice.


I don't see this at all.

Once you're in the higher ups and different denominations openly clash about who is correct, there is no choice at all.

Christianity is rules. It is not a buffet where you take what you want.

Some denominations follow saints. Some do not. That is it. They each view the other as wrong. While you can theoretically choose the denomination, you are simply choosing what choices are premade for you.

What principals you uphold are not your choice at all. You choose a denomination that already has those choices.

This is a tremendous distinction, even though it sounds like subtle semantics.
I respectfully suggest that you don't understand the faith of a great many people.


I respectfully suggest that you (still) don't understand the posts of a great many people.
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CHAPEL
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Wrayman wrote:
I respectfully suggest that you don't understand the faith of a great many people.


I respectfully suggest that you and a great many so called "Christians" do not understand what Christianity is.
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