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Second World War at Sea: Coral Sea» Forums » General

Subject: New rulebook confirmed, yes or no? rss

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Ryan Hanson
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So, does this game come with a new edition series rulebook? Or is it the standard one that they have been using for years?
 
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Wulf Corbett
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Shotts
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It's the same one. There was a plan to issue both this and Great War at Sea: Pacific Crossroads with a new, combined rulebook, but that isn't ready.
 
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P D
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Is there a downloadable copy of the rule book?
 
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Michael McFall
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Quote:
It's the same one.


Which doesn't make this an introductory game! It's the same game, with the same rules, just less map-space and less componets.

An introductory game "should" have rules that are easy to get into the game within say.... 10 minutes of reading the rules. This isn't it. You have to read over 20 pages of rules just to get into this game AND explain it to your non-wargaming friends. So much for using this to get new players into the hobby.

AP could have also used this as an oppertunity to fix minor glitches in the rules. They didn't and "they missed the boat" (no pun intended because it isn't really funny).

If your going to advertise a game as a intro to a series, "then do it". If this is introductory, then so are all the other games in this series. They all have smaller scenerios.

Bottom line, I was expecting a "intro rules book" and all I got was a "less componet game". What this game REALLY is; it is a cheaper game in this series you can use to see if you might like it. A lure or sample, "that is not introductory" but that is just my opinion. Oh yeah, they are raising the price too so NOW it is a more expensive sample.

Needless to say, I am a little disappointed... They should have just reprinted SOPAC instead.

Here's an idea for a introductory game of this series: Make it solo for 3-5 scenerios; follow ONE ship like the Enterprise (shipboard pride); Use the solo play using a program approch method. Then build into a 2 player game while expanding the game size.

Oh yeah... sorry about the spelling but this thing doesn't have spell check. I think everyone will get my points.

 
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Matthew Lohse
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Quote:
An introductory game "should" have rules that are easy to get into the game within say.... 10 minutes of reading the rules. This isn't it. You have to read over 20 pages of rules just to get into this game AND explain it to your non-wargaming friends. So much for using this to get new players into the hobby.


Quote:
Bottom line, I was expecting a "intro rules book" and all I got was a "less componet game". What this game REALLY is; it is a cheaper game in this series you can use to see if you might like it. A lure or sample, "that is not introductory" but that is just my opinion. Oh yeah, they are raising the price too so NOW it is a more expensive sample.


I don't think they were trying for the first option you mentioned with Pacific Crossroads/Coral Sea [or Airborne for the PG series when they had it and whatever game will replace it. I think APLs intention was very much the second option... the less component game. They are cheaper ways [$20/25 versus $50+] to try the series out and sea if you like it... and as such I would agree that they are meant to lure new players in to the system[s]. They are indeed raising the price [although $25 is fairly cheap still], but given the various changes they have had to deal with over the past 2 years, I can understand why the price was raised... even though it might make it a less tempting lure. There are many things that an introductory game can be... they chose one of those options.

Perhaps they should include a printout of the "How to Play Series X in 5 minutes" in the boxes, but I don't know that having a 10 minute version of the rules is necessarily part of an introductory game. At least in my case, I would prefer learning the game/series rules the first time through but just starting with small scenarios so that you can get hang of them. Using a different companies game as an example, I would recommend Under the Lily Banners from GMT's Musket and Pike series as a first game in it [or at least until the most recent game] solely because it had a very small scenario that was great for learning the system... and learning it with the full series rules. Having a cheap game in a series would definitely make me more tempted to try it out if I had some sort of interest in that series. I am just not sure it would be possible to really pair down either of the series rules much more without creating more problems or having a lot of used complain that half the scenarios in the game were minor things that would never be played twice. Perhaps a better way to achieve what you are suggesting would be to do what has been done with at least a few GMT games... include a detailed example of play from a turn or two of a scenario to show how the system works.

Now, having the revised GWAS/SWWAS rules done in time for the new games would have been a big plus... if you are going to have people learn have them learn on the newer version and as you point out fix all sorts of minor bugs in the system. That said, when making a change to the rules for two series of games [and unifying the two] I really want them to get it right. Even so, given the ~2 year delay in these games I would have hoped they would have gotten it done in that time... and not doing so it a big failure in my opinion. I think that is the biggest problem with these games... having people introduced to the series/learning on rules that will be out of date in say a year.
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Matthew Lohse
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And I have no idea how I had the weird font change take place.
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Wulf Corbett
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Shotts
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Weird... never seen a font like that on BGG...
 
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P D
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So I'm really considering buying this game, as I love the theme and setting but :
1) got a bit scared off by the 'new rules coming out in a year' in the threads above. Hmmmmmm. Is this really the case?
2) a bit worried that if these are 'full rules' then I won't quickly be able to get my wife into the game. Hmmmmmm. How 'wife friendly' are the rules?

Michael & Matthew - how do you guys find the game please?

Cheers
 
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Joshua Gottesman
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If you were going to get the wife into the game, I would try a couple of the battle scenarios first. To play them, all you have to do is read the tactical rules. None of the operational movement, searching, air, etc. is required. If she gets past that, then its pretty straightforward, IMO. Not easy, and there is a method to the madness.

That being said, I'm looking for streamlined combined rules, too.
 
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Wulf Corbett
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Everything I have seen so far suggests that the new rules, when they appear, will be compatible with the existing counters (and the GWAS tactical map). The SWWaS battle scenarios will need a bit of a rewrite (as they'll use the GWaS map), but otherwise it should be quite possible to use the existing games with the new rules. So there's no real loss in buying these games now.

Of course, I'm not in the playtesting, have not seen the new rules, and am commenting only on what I've heard (chiefly on CSW).
 
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Edward Wehrenberg
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Man, I don't know about new or old rules, but I DO know that it is NOT introductory, to be sure.

I have never played a ship game, and was looking forward to getting this and learning how. But I am just baffled by the rules and all the phases, etc.

I *really* wished they had included an introductory baby scenario to walk me through these convoluted rules. I'm just clueless on how to get starte and play. I picked up Washington's War by GMT the same day, and they have a whole booklet with a sample play to teach you how to "do it".

Other companies could learn a lot from GMT.
 
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Charles Stampley
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Don't hold your breath waiting for Avalanche to print a play book or a rulebook containing actual examples of play. I own almost all the GWAS and SWWAS games but the rulebooks for both systems are old, unorganized, and badly in need of updating. Avalanche's strength is its website's daily content which often has interesting updates for their games. If you like I can meet you on VASSAL and show you some of the basics--oh wait--they don't allow VASSAL either.
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