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Subject: EPA: Milk = Oil rss

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True Blue Jon
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I think I might cry.
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As a Vegan, I applaud any measures that make the exploitation of animals more difficult. devil
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That's right. They totally consented to being pumped full of hormones to produce many times the normal volume of milk and to be fed a nearly toxic diet to increase that production even further.

Who wouldn't consent to such things at the pay rate they get!?!

In all seriousness, I'm not against using animals - I prefer it when they can be treated well, but they are still a resource to be used for our benefit. But let's not pretend it isn't exploitation.

-MMM
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Octavian wrote:
That's right. They totally consented to being pumped full of hormones to produce many times the normal volume of milk and to be fed a nearly toxic diet to increase that production even further.


Wacky fun...
 
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Dan? Dan? Move away from the edge, Dan. You're trying to make sense...
 
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no one else said it but : there is no use crying over spilt milk
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The current regulation/implementation sounds like just your normal everyday bureaucratic power-grab - "oh look we can get our budget increased because now we have to monitor dairy farms too!!!"

The West Australian parliament passed "proceeds of Crime" laws that allowed both the benefits of crimes and the materials used to commit the crime to be seized by the police and, if approved by the courts, forfeited to the state.

So after a few years the Director of Public Prosecutions has seized some 70 year old couple's house on the basis that their son hid large amount of dope in the ceiling. Whats next thinks the little fascist shit? Well Frank has murdered Tom in Frank's rented house but Frank owns a house and we'll seized the house he owns as maybe he was just trying to avoid having it seized under this great legislation! Fortunately the courts laughed at him on that one.

A journalist has also had profits of a book that he co-wrote with a crim seized. "Profits of crime" - and it comes in handy to stop any commercial identity from talking about anything with any criminal associations that embarrasses the government cause if they make any profit from it that becomes "proceeds of crime".

So bureaucracies try to expand their field of control to the max permitted under regulation/legislation.

The people to blame for this shit? - I'd look at the law drafters and just deduct the necessary amounts from their retirement funds to fix up the messes they make with inadequately drafted laws.

Anything in too high a concentration or too large an amount will cause environmental destruction. Look at a hurricane.
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Bojan Ramadanovic
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I am with Koldie on this one.
There may exist the universe in which milk spills are a sort of environmental hazard that deserves the government monitoring, regulation and intervention.

In this universe however, it sounds very much like a government being used (as these sort of regulations very often are) to squeeze the little guys on behalf of the politically well-connected behemoths in the industry. Either that or just a bureaucratic power-grab/empire-building as Pinook suggests.

In either case, new or not new, regulation is idiotic and deserves to be comprehensively derided.
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Koldfoot wrote:

Just because the hypothetical situation can be constructed that something could possibly be a hazard to the environment does not mean that the EPA has the right to impose overbearing controls to inhibit traditional, non-harmful activities.


Well, I think you would be hard pressed to term housing over 1,320 gallons (the rules cut-off point) of milk on your farm "traditional".

You are right that any large amount of a concentrated substance is potentially hazardous to the environment it doesn't naturally occur in. That doesn't mean they can store it in Hefty bags down by the river. I don't think it unreasonable for the EPA to set standards to keep hazards minimized. If you can't produce a product in a safe manner without making a profit then you are in the wrong business.

Today's farming methods, even on family farms, are on a scale that would make "traditional" farmers from just 60 years ago gape with wonder. With that increased intensity of production and concentration of materials comes an increased need for higher standards to protect the environment and people's safety.

The industry will always complain about new standards as "the government trying to get more power", because it make things more expensive for them. Then they appeal to consumers common sense (read: ignorance) to pressure lawmakers to relax restrictions. The end result being the typical under regulation that caused the mortgage crisis, the savings and loan crisis, the Gulf oil spill crisis and many other examples. Instead of jumping on the poor oppressed industry bandwagon. people should look at just what, at a minimum, 1300 gallons of milk flowing down a stream into a nearby reservoir would do to the local water supply, recreational water use and local wildlife.

If you want to drink milk, then you should be prepared to pay the cost of safely producing and delivering it to your grocery store.


EDIT: The 1320 is for above ground storage, under ground tanks are regulated starting at 42,000 gallons!!! What traditional farmer houses 42,000 gallons of milk on the farm in between sales?
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Quote:
The end result being the typical under regulation that caused the mortgage crisis, the savings and loan crisis, the Gulf oil spill crisis and many other examples.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Phew. That was so hilarious I was compelled to cut 90 seconds from my family visit to marvel and laugh at the purposeful obtuseness of the RSP liberal mindset.

Thanks for the chuckle. You may now return to being right about everything.
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DWTripp wrote:

Phew. That was so hilarious I was compelled to cut 90 seconds from my family visit to marvel and laugh at the purposeful obtuseness of the RSP liberal mindset.

Thanks for the chuckle. You may now return to being right about everything.


Of course, laissez faire proponents will continue to try and chip away at the thin blue line between us (the citizenry) and the ammoral profit machines. The problem is that corporations/companies/industries are like children. They constantly push the line trying to see what they can get away with. They also don't make the connections between their actions and the possible negative consequences of those actions. It is our job, as citizens, to make the rules and laws that these children have to obey in order to be productive members of society. Those collective laws and rules are the government, like it or don't. Unfortunately, these children never learn or grow up, so you never get that rewarding moment you get with a child when they reach the point where can live on their own. Keeping these children in line requires eternal, strict vigilance. Laissez faire proponents would take the rules away and let the children run screaming through the grocery store toppling stacks of items and running their carts into innocent shoppers, all the while standing there saying tsk tsk but doing nothing.
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Quote:
the children run screaming through the grocery store toppling stacks of items


Nay.

The supermarket grocery stores are created by these so called "children" you loath. The folks running amok in them are the vast herds of the self-entitled who truly believe that such things as cold healthy milk, fresh produce and endless shelves of packaged goodness "magically" appeared when the government waved it's unicorn wand.

You may now swipe your food-stamp card at the self-service line... another insanely awesome creation of private industry.
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DWTripp wrote:
Quote:
the children run screaming through the grocery store toppling stacks of items


Nay.

The supermarket grocery stores are created by these so called "children" you loath. The folks running amok in them are the vast herds of the self-entitled who truly believe that such things as cold healthy milk, fresh produce and endless shelves of packaged goodness "magically" appeared when the government waved it's unicorn wand.

You may now swipe your food-stamp card at the self-service line... another insanely awesome creation of private industry.
Where's the strawman button?

I don't think TheChin! minds private industry.

I think he loves the kind of private industry that invests in safety measures to not risk polluting environment when producing. And I think that kind of private industry loves the kind of government regulations that require all private industry to take the same steps, so that they can compete fairly in the market without having to compromise with their environmental conscience.
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My problem with this is that it looks like regulation that helps the bigger dairy producers (ie, Borden and their associated farms) and hurts smaller farmer. (including organic milk).

This isn't an issue of laissez faire- its government regulators deliberately taking sides to promote certain winners in a given market. By hitting all milk producers with this regulation, it just makes it that much more difficult for smaller producers to compete with the big boys.

I would think that this sort of thing- helping protect and promote small buisness- would be something that the Left would getting on board with.....

.....Apparently not.

*sigh*

Darilian
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DCAnderson wrote:
Darilian wrote:
My problem with this is that it looks like regulation that helps the bigger dairy producers (ie, Borden and their associated farms) and hurts smaller farmer. (including organic milk).

This isn't an issue of laissez faire- its government regulators deliberately taking sides to promote certain winners in a given market. By hitting all milk producers with this regulation, it just makes it that much more difficult for smaller producers to compete with the big boys.

I would think that this sort of thing- helping protect and promote small buisness- would be something that the Left would getting on board with.....

.....Apparently not.

*sigh*

Darilian


Ok, here is my dark secret:

I actually think this regulation is kind of dumb.

What bugs me though is the misrepresentation of the facts to support a narrative.

In an ideal world we could just discuss this thing on the merits of the actual regulation itself.

Instead, everything like this gets turned into fuel for the fire of the all important world view confirmation of: "The Federal Government is out of freaking control 'cause you liberals just like making laws about shit!"


Trick is Dan-
While I would agree that there is such a thing as 'reasonable' regulation, ALL regulation will have the unintended consequences of picking some companies over others.

And arguing between the 'laissez faire' evel Republicans vs. the 'Never saw a regulation I didn't like' weeny Democrats only gets in the way, as you point out.

Sometimes its worth it to just play along as if the other side has a point, BEFORE automatically going to the barricades to defend your 'side'.

Darilian
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My black cynical heart suspects that a lawyer working for one of the large dairy corporations was more likely the one who 'suggested' this sort of rules change.

Squeeze out the opposition, while at the same time, you get to say that your multinational company supports 'any and all regulation' to keep milk safe. You know, for the children.....

One might say I'm too cynical, but after seeing Hasbro and Mattel pull this exact same shit in the toy industry in the wake of the Chinese 'Ohmygod, Lead is everywhere, our kids are all going to die!!!' scare last year- and how they didn't lift a FINGER when Congress went overboard in their regulatory mania- I would counter that maybe I'm not cynical enough.

Darilian
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Darilian wrote:
My problem with this is that it looks like regulation that helps the bigger dairy producers (ie, Borden and their associated farms) and hurts smaller farmer. (including organic milk).

This isn't an issue of laissez faire- its government regulators deliberately taking sides to promote certain winners in a given market. By hitting all milk producers with this regulation, it just makes it that much more difficult for smaller producers to compete with the big boys.

I would think that this sort of thing- helping protect and promote small buisness- would be something that the Left would getting on board with.....

.....Apparently not.

*sigh*

Darilian
Small is cute but not necessarily beautiful.
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Darilian wrote:
My black cynical heart suspects that a lawyer working for one of the large dairy corporations was more likely the one who 'suggested' this sort of rules change.

Squeeze out the opposition, while at the same time, you get to say that your multinational company supports 'any and all regulation' to keep milk safe. You know, for the children.....

One might say I'm too cynical, but after seeing Hasbro and Mattel pull this exact same shit in the toy industry in the wake of the Chinese 'Ohmygod, Lead is everywhere, our kids are all going to die!!!' scare last year- and how they didn't lift a FINGER when Congress went overboard in their regulatory mania- I would counter that maybe I'm not cynical enough.

Darilian


I suspect the opposite, that a well meaning EPA policy maker saw a potential risk, implemented/drafted rules that would increase costs for dairy farms which resulted in the mega-farms of the industry playing the "family" farm card to get sympathy for a rules change. The rules would be more expensive for a large operator than a small one. I think there is a myth that these mega-farms feel threatened by smaller "family" farms, I don't think they are. The scale that the big producers create their products ensures that they can undersell the small farmers. This has caused the dying off of small farms, not government regulation. We can't keep scaling back government regulation to make small business more competitive because it doesn't work, it's all a smoke screen. when you reduce operating costs for small business, you also reduce it for big business and the net change is zero for them but worse for us as we have given up our protections to give them more profit. The big companies/farms use this sentiment to their advantage, if they dislike a regulation because it costs them money, they will use industry shills to complain about how it costs the small farmer, plucking our heart strings. In the end, they are the only winners because the small farmer STILL cannot compete even after the regulations are gone.

Small family farms have value to the conglomerates for this very reason, they are a lever for them to prevent us from making rules and laws that affect them.

Your parallel with the lead incident doesn't exactly match up because with farms we are talking about commodities and they operate in a different framework.

Now, having said all that, I agree with you that what you describe does occur in certain industries and I think a pre-requisite to any revamping of our commerce controls needs to start with REAL campaign finance reform and erecting strong barriers between regulators and regulatees so that the shenanigans you describe are minimized. Time and again, safety rules and regulations are subverted by our bought and paid for government.
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DCAnderson wrote:

And for the record, just so we can end the one line of argument, I will agree that the dangers milk pose to an environment are limited to a very particular set of circumstances and probably not that big a threat in the grand scheme of things. My point though was against the impression the article was giving was that the guys at the EPA are dense enough to consider the oil in milk to be the same kind of threat as petroleum.


Right, and from the additional article you posted, it is clear that they aren't making dairy farms install nuclear-waste containment casks for the milk. They just have to have spill prevention plans with large farms needing the plan to be certified by an engineer. It isn't exactly like trying to prevent global warming. The anti-EPA rhetoric would make us think that each gallon of milk would have to be stored in in individual earthquake proof bunkers made of solid gold. I think the requirement is appropriate to the risk, a risk more than adequately laid out in the New Zealand report you also previously posted. Further, that report only dealt with milk waste waster, after a lot of the organic material had been removed. The problems increase exponentially with the top-shelf undiluted stuff.
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Drew1365 wrote:
This is the same regulatory agency that declared CO2 a dangerous pollutant.

If you really believed in the actions of the EPA, you'd stop breathing as a show of support.


I think human feces is a dangerous pollutant, but I don't expect to stop excreting it any time soon. But if an entity started spraying millions of pounds of it into the air every year, I'd support legislation to stop them.
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Drew1365 wrote:


I draw a different conclusion. The EPA is underfunded, underequipped and underpowered to do it's job correctly. We should be the model that the Dutch come to, not vice-versa. BTW, the article goes on to show that we did eventually accept their equipment.

Instead of enforcing proactive regulations that stress disaster preparedness plans, we have toothless reactionary regulations that are useless in a real crisis.

Coming around full circle, if the EPA would have previouslyt made laws/regulations on Oil companies like they should, all the nay sayers would be condemning big government for environemntal dangers that were "theoretical". We would have posts saying that if you think oil should be regulated, you better not wash your face or your facial oil will get in the water.

I'm not claiming the EPA does it job efficiently, or even well. They are in a constant battle with people with lots more money than them and with their planted turncoats within, to protect us from irresponsible entities that would hurt us for their own greed. I think people who aren't trying to make the EPA more independent and much stronger are just being played by the very people who benefit from a small, weak EPA. The kind of people who think that any kind of change that might have any kind of impact on production, growth and progress is evil and needs to be shouted down, no matter the consequences. We need a responsible economy, not an out of control beast that crushes everything in it's way.
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Drew1365 wrote:
http://thehill.com/opinion/columnists/dick-morris/106295-oba...

Quote:
According to state disaster relief officials, Alabama conceived a plan — early on — to erect huge booms offshore to shield the approximately 200 miles of the state’s coastline from oil. Rather than install the relatively light and shallow booms in use elsewhere, the state (with assistance from the Coast Guard) canvassed the world and located enough huge, heavy booms — some weighing tons and seven meters high — to guard their coast.

But … no sooner were the booms in place than the Coast Guard, perhaps under pressure from the public comments of James Carville, uprooted them and moved them to guard the Louisiana coastline instead.

So Alabama decided on a backup plan. It would buy snare booms to catch the oil as it began to wash up on the beaches.

But … the Fish and Wildlife Administration vetoed the plan, saying it would endanger sea turtles that nest on the beaches.

So Alabama — ever resourceful — decided to hire 400 workers to patrol the beaches in person, scooping up oil that had washed ashore.

But … OSHA (the Occupational Safety and Health Administration) refused to allow them to work more than 20 minutes out of every hour and required an hourlong break after 40 minutes of work, so the cleanup proceeded at a very slow pace.

The short answer is that every agency — each with its own particular bureaucratic agenda — was able to veto each aspect of any plan to fight the spill, with the unintended consequence that nothing stopped the oil from destroying hundreds of miles of wetlands, habitats, beaches, fisheries and recreational facilities.


And you people think the problem is that we don't have enough bureaucracy in this country?



The OP is intentionally overstating things. Even if we accept his version of the story, which is at odds with what Alabama's own Governor has to say, only one aspect of a plan was veto'd. The other examples were changes and restrictions, not vetoes. As of June 5th, 86% of Alabama's sensitive beaches were protected by booms.

Even so, you can;t say that every mile of coastline is created equal and if a value judgment was made so that a boom was moved to protect a section of marsh over a section of public beach, then they had to make that decision. From what I gather, there isn't enough boom to go around so they are prioritizing until more can be obtained/built.
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bjlillo wrote:

Thank you big government for doing even more than you already have to drive the family milk farmer out of business.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
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AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

How big of a family do you suppose one would have to support the average of 100 cows per farm?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dairy_farming

I'm sure capitalism and the Randian "if they can do it better and cheaper, that's what wins" that would exist regardless of what government did, had NOTHING to do with it.
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Drew1365 wrote:
You are a faithful citizen! Receive your reward!



Cool! It shouldn't take too much to make that into a wicked dice tower!
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DCAnderson wrote:
Darilian wrote:
My problem with this is that it looks like regulation that helps the bigger dairy producers (ie, Borden and their associated farms) and hurts smaller farmer. (including organic milk).

This isn't an issue of laissez faire- its government regulators deliberately taking sides to promote certain winners in a given market. By hitting all milk producers with this regulation, it just makes it that much more difficult for smaller producers to compete with the big boys.

I would think that this sort of thing- helping protect and promote small buisness- would be something that the Left would getting on board with.....

.....Apparently not.

*sigh*

Darilian


Ok, here is my dark secret:

I actually think this regulation is kind of dumb.

What bugs me though is the misrepresentation of the facts to support a narrative.

In an ideal world we could just discuss this thing on the merits of the actual regulation itself.

Instead, everything like this gets turned into fuel for the fire of the all important world view confirmation of: "The Federal Government is out of freaking control 'cause you liberals just like making laws about shit!"


I am totally with you Dan on the notion that regulation in general is good and often necessary. However, it is so easily abused concept that if we want to preserve it, we who support it in principle must be *extra* vigilant against those instances when regulation gets dumb, overzealous or just plain corrupt.

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