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Subject: Why so much for Feast? rss

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Jeremy Volk
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Workshop costs 3 and lets you gain a card costing 1 more than it. Ironworks costs 4 and lets you gain a card of the same cost, with added benefits. University costs 2 and a potion (comparable to 5), and lets you gain an action costing 5 (about the same cost), as well as giving you 2 actions.

Feast, however, costs 4 and makes you trash it in order to gain a card worth only 1 more than it, with no other benefits. I don't find this to be a fair cost, and thus I almost never buy this card.

Am I missing something?

Workshop and Feast seem to me to have about the same level of usefulness. And yet, Feast costs more. Why? Does the cost of trashing itself really not balance its slightly improved gaining power enough?

In my experience, Feast is probably the least bought card in the game, possibly even behind Curses. But if Feast were worth one less coin, I would at least buy it every once in a while, although I think the fact that it takes up an action slot and also trashes itself makes it something that would only be used in certain decks, even at only 3 coins.

I know nothing can be done about it now, but if I had been in the room where the cost of Feast was decided, I would have thrown my two cents into the 3-cost hat, even though that doesn't make any sense.
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Matt Davis
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The point is that it gets you over a hump. A lot of the really strong cards in the game (base game at least - I don't have much experience with the expansions) cost 5. And the 3 -> 4 hump that the Workshop pushes you over is not as hard to get over as the 4 -> 5 hump. I mean, you're guaranteed to have at least 4 at some point in the first two turns, and probably again the next time through your deck. But 5s are a little harder to get at first.

Also, have you used the workshop much? Have you ever gotten to the second half of the game and thought...Workshop? What can I do with that? None of the 4's are worth anything. Sure, you can always grab a silver with it, but the fact that the Feast grabs a 5-cost for you and then gets out of your deck's way isn't entirely a drawback.

I don't think it's an especially strong card either, but it can be useful.
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David Bell
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Here's a hint as to the card's value: Trashing feast is a benefit, not a cost.
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Jesse Haulk
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Feast is a great card to get you from 4 to 5 AND has the benefit of removing itself from your deck so its not clogging it up anymore. It's just like using an early chapel to burn out coppers and estates from your deck. Makes your deck tighter.
 
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Kyle Smith
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The best Feast I've ever seen were first round. Someone with a 3/4 split gets a feast, and gets a sure fire 5 cost card next round, in addition to whatever they can buy. It's a fantastic boost early game. Aside from that, there are rarely situations where feast is better than other 4 cost cards you could get.
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Jon
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BaconSnake wrote:
In my experience, Feast is probably the least bought card in the game, possibly even behind Curses. But if Feast were worth one less coin, I would at least buy it every once in a while, although I think the fact that it takes up an action slot and also trashes itself makes it something that would only be used in certain decks, even at only 3 coins.

I know nothing can be done about it now, but if I had been in the room where the cost of Feast was decided, I would have thrown my two cents into the 3-cost hat, even though that doesn't make any sense.


If Feast cost 3, I would buy two of them on a 3/4 split if there were almost any 5 cost cards worth buying (especially if the 5 costers gave +Card/+Action).

At cost 4, Feast has many uses, depending on the other cards on the board. In an Ironworks setup, it is useful for gaining Duchies. If Duke is in play, it becomes very interesting.

I think I read somewhere DonaldX mentioned that a card was under priced if it was always correct to buy it. I think Feast at cost 4 is conditionally worth it. Feast at 3 would be a must-buy.
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David desJardins
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Chipacabra wrote:
Here's a hint as to the card's value: Trashing feast is a benefit, not a cost.


I think that's ridiculous. Feast would be way better if it stayed in your deck after use.
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Matt E
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As far as comparing it to University, remember that University can only gain you Action cards, whereas Feast can gain you a Duchy.
 
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Roberta Yang
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LastFootnote wrote:
As far as comparing it to University, remember that University can only gain you Action cards, whereas Feast can gain you a Duchy.


Or a Stash. Or a Duke.

But more importantly, University has a Potion in its cost, which makes it harder to buy and requires you to get a special Treasure before buying it - and University's gain effect is itself designed to just let you get more cards. In over words, with University, you need to buy a special card in order to buy another card in order to use it to gain more cards. University has a much larger investment and is designed for long-term strategies; Feast is a faster card designed as a quick way to get one 5-buy. The two are very different in function.
 
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Kenny VenOsdel
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Chipacabra wrote:
Here's a hint as to the card's value: Trashing feast is a benefit, not a cost.


I think that's ridiculous. Feast would be way better if it stayed in your deck after use.


Whether it would be more useful if it stayed in your deck or got trashed is situational. Depending on the deck either could be best. It can be really handy if it goes away when you throne room it since, if i'm not mistaken, you still gain two 5 cost cards.
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Andreas Krüger
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DaviddesJ wrote:
Chipacabra wrote:
Here's a hint as to the card's value: Trashing feast is a benefit, not a cost.


I think that's ridiculous. Feast would be way better if it stayed in your deck after use.


David,

in case you want to go on a holiday, this little algorithm can proxy you:

Search entry with most thumbs
Express opposite opinion


Unfortunately, the algorithm will not be able to come up with the clever arguments which you are usually able to provide a few posts later. cool
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Captain Frisk
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Thamos von Nostria wrote:
DaviddesJ wrote:
Chipacabra wrote:
Here's a hint as to the card's value: Trashing feast is a benefit, not a cost.


I think that's ridiculous. Feast would be way better if it stayed in your deck after use.


David,

in case you want to go on a holiday, this little algorithm can proxy you:

Search entry with most thumbs
Express opposite opinion


Unfortunately, the algorithm will not be able to come up with the clever arguments which you are usually able to provide a few posts later. cool


Ha! Come on now, this proxy would only account for about 1/2 of David's posting output.

However, in this case, you're both correct.

1. Trashing the feast is not as bad as most first time players expect. It's not quite a benefit, but its far from a crippling penalty.
2. Since so many of the 5 cost cards provide additional actions (market, festival, lab, minion, bazaar), if the feast stayed in your deck, it would quickly get out of control...I think it would be a rare board indeed in which you would truly prefer to trash the feast instead of keeping it.

Finally, I don't think anyone mentioned the potential benefits of a late game feast buy as a way to get a duchy when you miss the magical 5 cost (either due to curse or VP clogging), or have 12 + 2 buys. Sometimes silver or an estate might be the better play, but it can be quite handy to pick up an extra duchy.

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Tim Baldwin
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I agree with David. If Feast wasn't trashed, most games with Feast would be Dutchy rush, and empty the 5 cost kingdom cards most of the time. Village, Feast, Feast then either buy another Feast or a Duchy. You could get 9 VP a turn if there is at least 1 +2 actions card in the set or Throne Room.

It seems like an underrated card if people think trashing it makes it better. It can be a great buy when you only have 4 coins and know you are going through your deck at least one more time.

Feast is perfectly balanced at 4 and trashing itself. Early on I thought several card were broken, yet over time I better understand the value of the card and realized Donald has done a fantastic job of balancing the game. It not perfect, but I haven't seen an expandable card game keep itself in balance as well as Dominion.
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Ted Vessenes
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Because on average, cards in the base set are underpowered compared to Seaside and Intrigue. This is generally seen as an improvement, as games where Silver is better than half of the kingdom cards aren't that interesting.
 
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Jeremy Volk
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Well, most people seem to feel that Feast is balanced, but I will continue to speak from firsthand experience: The people who I have seen buy Feast almost always lose, and the people who don't win.

The only time I can see Feast being useful is if someone has a very specific strategy in mind requiring lots of 5-cost cards and no 4-cost cards, as well as a lot of extra actions to spare. I can't think of any strategies in particular, especially since most of the strategies I see often use lots of 4-cost cards, but I suppose it might make sense every once in a while to buy a Feast.
 
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David Parker
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Jeremy, Perhaps you need to try playing with different people? I have seen Feast strategies win and lose.

Normally, I see people go for Feast mid-to late game, especially if 1) there is Throne Room out (and they have a slim deck), or 2) if there is a +2 action out. If there are fewer than 6 Provinces in the game then it doesn't hurt to get a few extra Duchies out of some Feasts.
 
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Richard Morris
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I have had success with Feast/Woodcutter/Throne Room when your coins were being thinned out by the other players.
 
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Edward Montgomery
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BaconSnake wrote:
Well, most people seem to feel that Feast is balanced, but I will continue to speak from firsthand experience: The people who I have seen buy Feast almost always lose, and the people who don't win.

The only time I can see Feast being useful is if someone has a very specific strategy in mind requiring lots of 5-cost cards and no 4-cost cards, as well as a lot of extra actions to spare. I can't think of any strategies in particular, especially since most of the strategies I see often use lots of 4-cost cards, but I suppose it might make sense every once in a while to buy a Feast.


The first reply in this thread hit it on the head. It gets you over the hump to the cards that cost 5. This can be a big hump. Without careful play you can fall into a trap where you can only buy cards that cost 4. Very often, your early play (that is, the first few purchases) are designed to get you past that hump. Once you have a 5, it should be easier to get more 5's.

That is why an early Silver buy is so popular. It also helps get you over that hump.

Strategies based on lots of 4-cost cards expend a lot of treasure buying those cards. Buying a small number of carefully considered 5-cost cards plus Gold is a more typical path to a speedy victory. The game is a race, after all. Speed is everything.
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Dave Goldthorpe
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It's worth remembering that you can generate feasts from workshops and then turn them into something useful after your next shuffle. Sometimes slow improvements are better than no improvements at all. Feasts also get you a 5-cost card without you providing the coins/buy to do it, which can also be of subtle benefit.
 
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Jeremy Volk
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I think Remodel is superior to Feast in almost every way.
 
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Jon
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BaconSnake wrote:
I think Remodel is superior to Feast in almost every way.


If you have a remodel in your first pass through the deck without a 3 cost card in hand, you cannot gain a 5 cost card. There are times where Feast is helpful. You don't have to agree.

Remodel is generally more useful.
 
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Dave G
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BaconSnake wrote:
I think Remodel is superior to Feast in almost every way.


Did anyone suggest otherwise? I think Salvager is superior to Remodel in almost every way, but I don't see how it's a relevant point to this discussion.

Like almost every Dominion card* so far, Feast can vary in utility based on the other kingdom cards. If the 4s are less useful to your strategy than the 5s and especially if the 4s are terminal actions you don't want to clog your deck with, Feast can be a nice quick way to leverage to that Witch or Lab you want to get before anyone else. Sure, sometimes there are better cards available to do what you want, but not always. Almost like they designed the game that way.

*Besides Wishing Well....I really don't like Wishing Well.
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Travis Cooper
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I think opening silver/feast is almost always a good idea. Being guaranteed to get a 5 cost card early on makes it worth it. Of course there are some great setups where the feast shines as well. With the duke in play, and you want to go for a duke strategy, getting as many feasts as you can is a definite plus. Your deck is going to slow down with all that green and being able to use your feast helps a lot.

I think the university is cool, especially when vineyards are in play, but I see too often people just bogging down their decks with so many action cards that they don't get anywhere. Ironworks can create a similar problem. Workshop I usually only get when going after a gardens deck. Either way, I don't think the feast is over-priced. At 4 it is still a good deal, at 3 I would open double feast.
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David desJardins
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monkeyboy157 wrote:
I think opening silver/feast is almost always a good idea.


I am skeptical. On average, your hand with Feast is going to have 9*4/11 = 3.27 coins. So, if you draw 3 coins (most likely), you're going to be able to buy Silver (for example) and trash the Feast for a $5 card. Conversely, if you had bought Silver instead of Feast in the first place, then you would have $5 and could just buy the $5 card, so that's a wash.

The next most likely possibility is that you draw $4 with the Feast. In that case, you end up with a $4 card and a $5 card instead of Silver plus Gold. This depends on the cards but usually I would rather have the Gold. (There probably isn't a really great $4 card, or you would have bought it instead of Feast.)

The next most likely possibility is that you draw $2 with the Feast. You end up with a $2 card (or nothing) plus a $5 card. I think this is often worse than Silver plus a $4 card.

I don't see many situations where this really works well.
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Jon
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DaviddesJ wrote:
The next most likely possibility is that you draw $4 with the Feast. In that case, you end up with a $4 card and a $5 card instead of Silver plus Gold. This depends on the cards but usually I would rather have the Gold. (There probably isn't a really great $4 card, or you would have bought it instead of Feast.)

The next most likely possibility is that you draw $2 with the Feast. You end up with a $2 card (or nothing) plus a $5 card. I think this is often worse than Silver plus a $4 card.


I found this analysis to be interesting, but there appears to be an inconsitancy between the last sentences of these two paragraphs.

If there was no better $4 card than Feast, why is gaining a $4 card better than gaining a $5 in the last example?
 
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