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Phoenicia» Forums » Rules

Subject: Making change question rss

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Crazy Bob
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Is it in effect the same to say you can put as many cards as you want into your granary as change, rather than limiting this to just one card? Is there ever a time when you would want to do so?
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Tom Lehmann
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elcomadreja2 wrote:
Is it in effect the same to say you can put as many cards as you want into your granary as change, rather than limiting this to just one card?

No, the effect would be different. It would make saving and Granaries far too strong, as obviously, if you could convert all your saved cards into coins, then later buy cards -- on average worth 5 coins apiece -- at 4 coins apiece, you would always do so for all your saved cards whenever you saved wealth from one turn to the next. Further, allowing Granaries to hold all your saved Wealth for free effectively makes a mockery of Storage constraints whenever a player saves from one turn to the next.
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Crazy Bob
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I don't understand this. Say I have 2 4's in my hand.
Possiblity 1, I turn one into change and get a card back for a total of 2 cards
possiblity 2, I turn both into change and get a card back for a total of 1 card and 2 change.
How is possiblity 2 better?
 
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Tom Lehmann
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elcomadreja2 wrote:
Say I have 2 4's in my hand.

This is a contrived example, which uses the *lowest* possible card value, rather than the *average* card value. Try the following:

You have two cards, both 5s (average value). You put one into an Improved Granary for 5 coins and buy a card (value 5) for 4 coins during production: your average Wealth is now 11 (5 + 5 + 1). Alternatively, you put both cards into this proposed variant Granary for 10 coins, buy two cards for 8, get a 4 and a 6 (again, average value) and now have Wealth 12 (6 + 4 + 2). Clearly, option 2 is both different and better than option 1.
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Crazy Bob
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ok, I think there is something wrong with my understanding of the rules here. How do you get 10 change out of 2 5's when you must go down to 6 coins at the end of your turn? Do you not have to observe coin limits at the end of your turn?
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Tom Lehmann
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elcomadreja2 wrote:
ok, I think there is something wrong with my understanding of the rules here. How do you get 10 change out of 2 5's when you must go down to 6 coins at the end of your turn? Do you not have to observe coin limits at the end of your turn?

I agree we're not communicating. Placing 10 change from two cards in a Improved Granary is not possible under the rules. However, it seemed to be what you were suggesting in your original post, which is why I labeled this as a variant in my reply:
Quote:
Is it in effect the same to say you can put as many cards as you want into your granary as change, rather than limiting this to just one card?

(emphasis added)
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Tom Lehmann
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OK -- now, on further reflection, I think I understand what you're actually trying to ask:

A) Observing all the storage and coin limits in the game, would allowing a player to discard multiple production cards into an Improved Granary -- instead of just one -- ever result in an advantage for that player?

No.

B) Would doing so ever result in a disadvantage for a player?

Yes.

C) Why was the rule phrased the way it is?

Since all the cases where the result would be different would be to a player's disadvantage, we restricted the number of discards to one so that players wouldn't have to consider the false decision to possibly hurt their own position.
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David desJardins
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
A) Observing all the storage and coin limits in the game, would allowing a player to discard multiple production cards into an Improved Granary -- instead of just one -- ever result in an advantage for that player?


Hmm, I'm not sure this is true, although the situations are unlikely to arise. Suppose you have so many cards in hand and production that you know you are going to end the turn with your storage limit in cards, plus a full treasury. Then all you care about is maximizing the number of cards that you draw so you can gain selection (more chances to draw 6's, or at least 5's). If you've got zero coins in your treasury and your production is 2 mod 4, then you might want to give up two cards (particularly if they are 4's) to fill up your treasury so you can look at an extra card during the production phase.
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Tom Lehmann
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DaviddesJ wrote:
If you've got zero coins in your treasury and your production is 2 mod 4, then you might want to give up two cards (particularly if they are 4's) to fill up your treasury so you can look at an extra card during the production phase.

Nope, you haven't worked it all the way through. Here's a concrete example: Improved Granary, 2 cards saved, both of which are 4s, 0 coins, 14 production, 4 storage.

Case 1: you discard 1 card for 4 coins in the Granary, keeping the other 4. You end production with 4 new cards, plus your saved 4, and 2 coins in your Granary. You discard down to 4 cards for storage limit, placing your 4 in the Granary, and end at 4 cards and 6 coins.

Case 2: you discard 2 cards, saving 6 coins in your Granary. You end production with 5 new cards and 0 coins in your Granary. You then have to discard a card for storage limit. Unless *all* your cards are 6s, you now have 4 cards and less than 6 coins in your Granary.

Essentially, you get to see exactly one more card at the cost of 2 coins (more if the saved cards aren't 4s); this is always less than or equal to the spread between the lowest possible value and highest possible value of that extra card. It is never higher.
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David desJardins
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Nope, you haven't worked it all the way through. Here's a concrete example: Improved Granary, 2 cards saved, both of which are 4s, 0 coins, 14 production, 4 storage.


I'm pretty sure I did work it through. Try the same example, but start with 4 cards saved (5,5,4,4).

Case 1: you discard 1 card for 4 coins, keeping (5,5,4). You end production with (5,5,4,X,X,X,X) + 2 coins. Now you discard down to 4 cards, and of course have 6 coins in the granary.

Case 2: you discard 2 cards for 6 coins, keeping (5,5). You end production with (5,5,X,X,X,X,X) and no coins. Now you discard down to 4 cards, and of course have 6 coins in the granary.

Case 2 is superior to case 1 because your expected value of the cards you keep is higher. Coins are the same.

I don't claim this is a likely situation. But it's theoretically possible.
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