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Subject: Would the world be a better place if Islam just chilled out a bit more? rss

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James Carlton
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Apologies if it offends any Muslims but it's something I've thought about a bit.

Now I know there are many different kinds of Islam - and what we see on TV doesn't represent all of Islam as a whole... but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.

Granted sometimes it's justified - there are a lot of Muslim's suffering some terrible things at the moment, but at times it feels like they're just ready to get pissed at anything.

The thing is, if I've had a really shit day at work, there's one foolproof cure: A nice cold beer.

Maybe I wake up on the wrong side of bed and feel like crap, I know one thing that'll pick me up: Bacon.

And any other time I'm feeling less than awesome, one thing never fails to brighten my day: Hot women wearing not much clothing.

Now if you told me that I couldn't do these things, I'd probably be pretty pissed and tell you where you could shove all those beers I'd no longer be drinking - especially if you then said that if I got caught getting around these laws you'd get a bunch of thugs to beat the shit out of me or worse.

I'd be a much angrier guy than I am now. On a really bad day I think I'd be someone you'd want to stay well away from.

So I kinda pity Muslims in that way. They're pissed even when people aren't killing and oppressing them.

Clearly, strict adherence to Muslim teachings doesn't guarantee your life is going to be all that great. Would it be so bad if they just chilled a little on the small stuff?

I guess this comes back to the problem of who decides when a religion is wrong? How can you ammend a philosophy that has been claimed as the word of God for so long?
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The world would be a better place if pompous self-righteous individuals quit giving unsolicited advice.
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I'm sorry, but my religion forbids me to bash religions not associated with my ethnicity, so I can't join you.

Now, where's that Christianity thread? I feel like stirring up some shit.
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Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!
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Mac Mcleod
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joebelanger wrote:
Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!


Call me back when those guys start using children as shields, start beheading journalists,

(http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/norway-muslim...)

and start having worldwide riots over cartoons and kill their own frikking people! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm)

Compare the results for christian riots and islamic riots (note the number of unique "Over 100 die in islamic riots" type entries in different countries in the top 50 results). Many of the "christian riot" results are hindu "anti-christian" riots from some big riots in 2008 in india tho the austrailian christians are reported to have rioted over artwork (no deaths) recently.

Yes, it would be good if they chilled out. But it's kind of hard when the 1st world is

a) taking your stuff
b) supporting dictatorships in your countries
c) leaving you in poverty while the royal families or dictators live wealthy lives.

We need to get OUT of the middle east-- let oil go to whatever price it goes to without us spending TWO TRILLION dollars (so far) to protect the oil and get on to new technologies as a result of seeing the true price of oil. Once we are out of the middle east, they may stop freaking out constantly. They might even chill out.
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James Carlton
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maxo-texas wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!


Call me back when those guys start using children as shields, start beheading journalists,

(http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/norway-muslim...)

and start having worldwide riots over cartoons and kill their own frikking people! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm)

Compare the results for christian riots and islamic riots (note the number of unique "Over 100 die in islamic riots" type entries in different countries in the top 50 results). Many of the "christian riot" results are hindu "anti-christian" riots from some big riots in 2008 in india tho the austrailian christians are reported to have rioted over artwork (no deaths) recently.

Yes, it would be good if they chilled out. But it's kind of hard when the 1st world is

a) taking your stuff
b) supporting dictatorships in your countries
c) leaving you in poverty while the royal families or dictators live wealthy lives.

We need to get OUT of the middle east-- let oil go to whatever price it goes to without us spending TWO TRILLION dollars (so far) to protect the oil and get on to new technologies as a result of seeing the true price of oil. Once we are out of the middle east, they may stop freaking out constantly. They might even chill out.


I gotta agree here.

As an Atheist I don't like the conservative Christian right much... but not being an abortion doctor I'm not really afraid of any of them - even the small minority who are clearly unhinged.

The vast majority of Christians I find to be quite nice people.

On the other hand, a quite sizeable number of Muslim's scare the living crap out of me, so yeah I think there's a difference.
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Jasta wrote:
On the other hand, a quite sizeable number of Muslim's scare the living crap out of me, so yeah I think there's a difference.


It strikes me that you likely have much less personal experience with 'a quite sizeable number of Muslims' than 'a quite sizeble number of people who are just like me christians'.
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Jasta wrote:
As an Atheist I don't like the conservative Christian right much... but not being an abortion doctor I'm not really afraid of any of them - even the small minority who are clearly unhinged.
I'm about 100 times more afraid of that the Chinese Jehovas Witnesses that keep coming here to talk about Ye-Su with my gf will start telling her that I'm with the devil and try to take away all her free time than I'm afraid that the café owner down the street or the veil-bearing mother downstairs will blow themselves up in the subway.
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maxo-texas wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!


Call me back when those guys start using children as shields, start beheading journalists,


'Cause blowing kids to pieces is much more Christlike.

Haditha just called and wants your last leg to stand on.
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Jeff Jones
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Jasta wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!


Call me back when those guys start using children as shields, start beheading journalists,

(http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/norway-muslim...)

and start having worldwide riots over cartoons and kill their own frikking people! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm)

Compare the results for christian riots and islamic riots (note the number of unique "Over 100 die in islamic riots" type entries in different countries in the top 50 results). Many of the "christian riot" results are hindu "anti-christian" riots from some big riots in 2008 in india tho the austrailian christians are reported to have rioted over artwork (no deaths) recently.

Yes, it would be good if they chilled out. But it's kind of hard when the 1st world is

a) taking your stuff
b) supporting dictatorships in your countries
c) leaving you in poverty while the royal families or dictators live wealthy lives.

We need to get OUT of the middle east-- let oil go to whatever price it goes to without us spending TWO TRILLION dollars (so far) to protect the oil and get on to new technologies as a result of seeing the true price of oil. Once we are out of the middle east, they may stop freaking out constantly. They might even chill out.


I gotta agree here.

As an Atheist I don't like the conservative Christian right much... but not being an abortion doctor I'm not really afraid of any of them - even the small minority who are clearly unhinged.

The vast majority of Christians I find to be quite nice people.

On the other hand, a quite sizeable number of Muslim's scare the living crap out of me, so yeah I think there's a difference.


While I agree with your overall statement there is still reason to be concerned. As I see it, the main reason that Muslim extremism is frightening is that in the vast majority of the Muslim world does not seem to believe that religion should not control government. Government and Islam are tightly interwoven all over the Muslim world. When religion has power over government and therefore thew force of the public institution behind them things usually go bad for all but the followers of said religion.

I do not for a moment believe that we produce kinder, gentler religious extremists here in the United States (or anywhere in the Western world). I just think they don't have the power of the government behind them and so they are much less tolerated. If they did, I have no doubt they would be just as totalitarian and violent as their Muslim extremist counterparts.

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Muslims, Christians, Jews, Women, Greenpeace, people who watch Hannity....they all need to chill the hell out.
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I say we take off, and nuke the site planet from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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Ben Foy
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Kevin C wrote:
To what extent is Islamic extremism a response to western colonialism?


It isn't. Western colonialism might stunted its growth but Islamic extremism dates back to Persian times, its always been there.
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Jackie Billings

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Kafka wrote:
Jasta wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
joebelanger wrote:
Jasta wrote:
but what we do see a lot of is Muslim's being really, really angry.


Google. Image Search: tea party movement, Timothy McVeigh, Iraq war Bible Quotes

Irish Catholics, Presbyterians and Christians in general need to chill the f--k out!


Call me back when those guys start using children as shields, start beheading journalists,

(http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/norway-muslim...)

and start having worldwide riots over cartoons and kill their own frikking people! (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4684652.stm)

Compare the results for christian riots and islamic riots (note the number of unique "Over 100 die in islamic riots" type entries in different countries in the top 50 results). Many of the "christian riot" results are hindu "anti-christian" riots from some big riots in 2008 in india tho the austrailian christians are reported to have rioted over artwork (no deaths) recently.

Yes, it would be good if they chilled out. But it's kind of hard when the 1st world is

a) taking your stuff
b) supporting dictatorships in your countries
c) leaving you in poverty while the royal families or dictators live wealthy lives.

We need to get OUT of the middle east-- let oil go to whatever price it goes to without us spending TWO TRILLION dollars (so far) to protect the oil and get on to new technologies as a result of seeing the true price of oil. Once we are out of the middle east, they may stop freaking out constantly. They might even chill out.


I gotta agree here.

As an Atheist I don't like the conservative Christian right much... but not being an abortion doctor I'm not really afraid of any of them - even the small minority who are clearly unhinged.

The vast majority of Christians I find to be quite nice people.

On the other hand, a quite sizeable number of Muslim's scare the living crap out of me, so yeah I think there's a difference.


While I agree with your overall statement there is still reason to be concerned. As I see it, the main reason that Muslim extremism is frightening is that in the vast majority of the Muslim world does not seem to believe that religion should not control government. Government and Islam are tightly interwoven all over the Muslim world. When religion has power over government and therefore thew force of the public institution behind them things usually go bad for all but the followers of said religion.

I do not for a moment believe that we produce kinder, gentler religious extremists here in the United States (or anywhere in the Western world). I just think they don't have the power of the government behind them and so they are much less tolerated. If they did, I have no doubt they would be just as totalitarian and violent as their Muslim extremist counterparts.



You know, historically speaking, the whole "Islam controlling the government" thing in Muslim countries worked out pretty well for us non-Muslims until... probably the fall of the Ottoman empire, actually. Which was in 1922, FYI.

I tell you, if Muslims f*cked us up as hard as we've f*cked them up over the course of the last 1000 years or so, they'd probably have the same utterly irrational fear of us. Instead of the perfectly rational one that comes with being colonized, invaded, and raped for resources again, and again, and again.
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Andrew Rowse
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It occurred to me the other day that the Islamic world's liberalisation has been really stunted by the attack that they perceive the western world to have made on them over the past couple of decades.

Clumsy western attempts to influence Muslims have created a world where there is zero chance that a wet hijab contest will be held in my lifetime, and I was surprised by how sad that made me.
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BFoy wrote:
Kevin C wrote:
To what extent is Islamic extremism a response to western colonialism?


It isn't. Western colonialism might stunted its growth but Islamic extremism dates back to Persian times, its always been there.


Wait! Islamic extremism dates back to way before Mohammed? Now that IS a new point of view. Care to explain?
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The world would be a better place if people chilled out a bit more.

Legislating, threatening, torturing, killing, judging, discriminating, and generally taking action against people who don't hold the same beliefs as you is the problem here.

Islamic extremism is an easy way to single out a demographic of People Who Meddle.

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Venga2 wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Kevin C wrote:
To what extent is Islamic extremism a response to western colonialism?


It isn't. Western colonialism might stunted its growth but Islamic extremism dates back to Persian times, its always been there.


Wait! Islamic extremism dates back to way before Mohammed? Now that IS a new point of view. Care to explain?


He probably meant the early Caliphate.
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"Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1792) was the first modern Islamic fundamentalist and extremists. Wahhab made the central point of his reform movement the principle that absolutely every idea added to Islam after the third century of the Mulsim era (about 950 CE) was false and should be eliminated." http://atheism.about.com/od/islamicsects/a/wahhabi.htm

Always there in significant numbers? (What is significant? Why?)
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Jasta wrote:


The thing is, if I've had a really shit day at work, there's one foolproof cure: A nice cold beer.

Maybe I wake up on the wrong side of bed and feel like crap, I know one thing that'll pick me up: Bacon.

And any other time I'm feeling less than awesome, one thing never fails to brighten my day: Hot women wearing not much clothing.


when i was in iran i had plenty of beer with everyone else. it's illegal sure, but it was illegal in australia and the USA once, but everyone still drank it if they wanted too. it's called free will.

yep there was pork too.. but not as much pork as there was beer.

yep the women were hot. on the street they were hot in with their hair covered.. at home they rebelled against the whole covering up thing. it was nice for the guests.

i actually think islam is way more chilled than christianity. as an atheist i can sit back and make a call on god stuff with a head that is not clouded by my own beliefs. the my god is beter than yours and all that.. i don't have a god, so i'm bound to be more objective.

yep. from where i stand it looks like christianity is much more hard core than islam. it's certainly better at killing people. the christian body count over time is probably outstripping islam 100:1.

do you think white christians got to rule the world by being nice? no, it's because they are the best head kickers and most aggressive.

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Kafka wrote:


While I agree with your overall statement there is still reason to be concerned. As I see it, the main reason that Muslim extremism is frightening is that in the vast majority of the Muslim world does not seem to believe that religion should not control government. Government and Islam are tightly interwoven all over the Muslim world.


wrong..

for instance, iran is meant to be.. but go and visit and see just how paper thin that is. people do what people want. the iranian govt claims to be an islamic state. but it's populace don't even pay lip service to it and are are way less religious than those in the USA. the vast majority in iran supported the islamic revolution not because they believed in a god, but because the revolutionaries were doing stuff to give them a better life. which unless you were one of the privileged few in the old regime, they have.
 
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antiussentiment wrote:
yep there was pork too.. but not as much pork as there was beer.


A personal anecdote, from the "why is it important to take 2 baptists fishing?" department:

On a road trip to Colorado with a few Muslim friends, we stop at a Wendy's - one guy, his fast food ordering on auto-pilot, asks for a Jr Bacon Cheeseburger, earning raucous laughter and playful scorn from my other two friends. This struck me as odd, since both of them are, shall we say, rather more liberal than I with regard to the drank and the fairer sex (which is not to say I'm a teetotaler - fortunately, I also know when to order a chicken sandwich whistle )

While philosophically inconsistent, I can see why such an attitude would develop - despite all the hyperbolic rhetoric associated with bacon and various other pork products, it's really just one of about half a dozen commonly available meats; if you grew up not eating it, you wouldn't really miss it.

Booze and ladies, however, are booze and ladies

(for those not familiar with the joke, you take two baptists fishing so that they won't drink your beer)
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toku42 wrote:
A personal anecdote, from the "why is it important to take 2 baptists fishing?" department:


I'm afraid I don't follow the story. My take-away was "drunk girls giggle a lot."
 
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toku42 wrote:
we stop at a Wendy's - one guy, his fast food ordering on auto-pilot, asks for a Jr Bacon Cheeseburger, earning raucous laughter and playful scorn from my other two friends.


i understand this. i have a jewish/israeli mate who will occasionally eat piggy despite her mother being mortified if she new. this usually causes some teasing..

i'm not sure i've seen her do it in front of another jew though...

PS. i like the baptist joke ~laughs~
 
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puddingsins wrote:


You know, historically speaking, the whole "Islam controlling the government" thing in Muslim countries worked out pretty well for us non-Muslims until... probably the fall of the Ottoman empire, actually. Which was in 1922, FYI.

I tell you, if Muslims f*cked us up as hard as we've f*cked them up over the course of the last 1000 years or so, they'd probably have the same utterly irrational fear of us. Instead of the perfectly rational one that comes with being colonized, invaded, and raped for resources again, and again, and again.


You see I really don't buy the whole "They're pissed off at us for everything from the Crusades onwards" argument.

For starters, Islam did it's fair share of invading and pillaging over the years.

Secondly, in the last 100 years, Germany and pretty much the rest of the Western world killed each other on a scale that was completely unprecedented - not once but TWICE.

Yet these days, you'd be hard pressed to find someone who still bears a grudge against them for any reason other than their football prowess.

Maybe it's because they make such great beer, know dozens of great ways to cook pork and their beer wenches look so attractive...
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