GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!
8,321 Supporters
$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
20 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
12 Posts

Battles of Westeros» Forums » General

Subject: Game had a chance for a clean break; why keep the four-unit models? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Graham Smallwood
United States
Santa Ana
California
flag msg tools
badge
TWO Equals in an "if" statement!!!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One comment on the entire Battlelore system to consider: everyone I've shown this game to has remarked/complained "Why does one guy do as much damage as four?" Since the fan-wank answer is always "it means cohesion, not living members", why not make each unit a single, large, well based figure and make the four hitpoints a slidable track or removable flags? Not to mention how moving four non-connected guys over terrain hexes is a pain. It still would have been Battlelore, it just would have done away with the poor quality, actively misleading physical representations of units. I may try playing with traditional 28s if I can find 10-12 with the right weapons.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Kröhnert
Germany
Aachen
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
why not make each unit a single, large, well based figure and make the four hitpoints a slidable track or removable flags?

... maybe because people like me are able to see on first glance where my army is more vulnerable at any given moment?

Your point is valid, but I soon learned (in Battlelore) that the visual help outweighs the "thematic" drawback.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike P
United States
Castleton
New York
flag msg tools
Check out my blog, Board Game Radar!!!
badge
Stop! That tickles!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Some people place one figure on top of a stack of color-coordinated poker chips. You still have a visual representation of the strength of the unit (based on height) but it's easier to move around.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
William Gaskill
United States
Bridgeton
New Jersey
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I got around this by using 6mm Baccus or GW Warmaster 10mm strands
on 20x40 bases & hit markers in BL.

I rather like the Westros figs so I'll be using them but I may
do unit moving trays & the hit markers.It seems so minor a thing
but the visual impact actually effects my enjoyment of the Game.

OD
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kurt Weihs
United States
Tacoma
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I don't think FFG wanted a clean break. I suspect the designer wanted to keep this as much a Battlelore style game as possible. One of the things that has been a consistent part of the "Borg" system since Battle Cry has been the 4/3/2 figures per unit. They already made significant changes to the order system I suspect they didn't want to make any other changes unless it was absolutely necessary otherwise they probably would have had to drop the name "Battlelore."
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
United States
Astoria
New York
flag msg tools
designer
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I've wondered the same thing. One figure (or mass of figures) and some "hit" markers would make more sense to me. And be cheaper to produce!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph
United States
Washington
flag msg tools

I'm glad I read the explanation of figure loss as representing cohesion,
since the whole issue of 1-figure units fighting as well as 4 figures made my mind go tilt from my first game of "Battle Cry". That makes it a little easier to swallow, but its still hard for me to imagine that a unit with reduced "cohesion" or "morale" or whatever you want to call it, is going to be as effective as a full, unshaken unit. One of the easiest ways for me to visualize it, is in terms of a unit's fatigue level, and the steadfastness of their morale, based on how much they've been fighting.

In one wargame I've played alot, they represent this by giving each unit thresholds where it will be classed as "Fresh","Worn", or "Spent", in order of declining performance...and one of the main things that puts them there is loss of manpower. So no matter what the loss of figures is meant to represent, its always hard for me to accept that a unit I think of as "spent" can defeat one thats "fresh". :what:



 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joseph
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
On the subject of having to move 4 figure-units, one easy solution is the idea of "movement trays" which mini wargamers have used for years, whether playing historical games, or something like Warhammer. I mean, when you're playing some horse-and-musket battle where a 15mm figure represents 20-50 men, and a "unit" might have 20 figures(!) you've got a lot of "lead to push" as the old saying went (I'm showing my age: the days of figures made from actual lead are long gone!)

Fantasy Flight has obviously implemented this method in their new
"Battles of Napoleon" game series (starting with "The Eagle and the Lion"). Infantry units are composed of the by-now familiar four figures, but their bases fit into square holes on trays that each
hold two figures. Admittedly, not a huge improvement, in reduction
of peices to move, but its progress. (Not sure if those trays could be adopted for use with minis from their earlier games).

Going slightly off-topic (sorry!) this is also used in a couple of
new ways in the game mechanics, that are interesting. They use it to represent formation: two 2-figure stands side by side are "line" formation, one behind the other represents "column". The same "column" arrangement, but with one stand's figures pointing forward and the other pointing backward, is used to indicate a "square".

They also use figures in different poses (and with subtle differences in uniforms) to represent specialized troops found in infantry units
of that era. A medieval-style unit, as in BL or BoW, would be say... all pikemen or all longbows. But a Napoleonic infantry unit would have
mostly Line infantry, with small sub-units of Grenadiers (shock/assault)
and Light Infantry (skirmishers). I was surprised to see that the Napoleon game will have this, so the four figures in an infantry unit won't all be the same. (The light infantry for example, can be detached and moved independently in a skirmish line).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
badalchemist
United States
San Antonio
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
sdiberar wrote:
I've wondered the same thing. One figure (or mass of figures) and some "hit" markers would make more sense to me. And be cheaper to produce!


Yeah, but it'd be one more thing to have to keep on the board. It's already bad enough when you see a single hex holding 4 units, an objective marker, a bridge, a river tile, and an engagement token.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jonathan Davis
United States
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I don't think they wanted a clean break. It's still a battlelore / commands and colors game and those have 4 models per infantry unit/3 per cavalry.

Making it one single guy with a pile of 'hit point' tokens would make it seem like instead of being a representation of a battle, you had a dozen heroic dudes fighting with another dozen heroic dudes in some small skirmish.

For people who play games with miniatures, it's always been easy to conceptualize just a couple figures representing many man. Granted its easier in C&C where each of the 4 blocks has pictures of several men on them.

As far as reduced strength units still attacking at full strength, I think it works well enough and is simple to remember. People who have done studies of WWII tactical warfare have concluded that a very small proportion of any squad did a disproportionate amount of the killing. Some people were just natural born killers who were good at both killing the enemy and staying alive, and most of the losses were of the clueless/new guys who wouldn't have contributed as much anyway. The firepower of a WWII squad didn't markedly decrease as it took losses, as guys would switch over to a machine gun or whatnot as needed.

This isn't a straight translation to medieval tactical warfare, but just something to think about in addition to the 'cohesion' answer. Certainly if figures removed represented straight kills the battlelore battles would be bloody beyond all plausible belief when compared to actual medieval battles. Their armies just didn't suffer 80% casualties in every engagement.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.