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Masters of Venice» Forums » General

Subject: How deep is this game? rss

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Madhujith Venkatakrishna
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I'm finding it very hard to get a sense of how deep this game is. As I live in India no chance for me to play this game before hand other than buying it. But before that I wanted to know some facts about this game:

- Is this game as deep as say Caylus/Imperial/TtA etc?
- How hard is this game to learn?
- How much does luck play a role in this game?

Thanks for the direction.

Best,
Madhu
 
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Andrew Miller
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madhujith wrote:
- Is this game as deep as say Caylus/Imperial/TtA etc?


I don't know exactly what you personally mean by "deep", but I would say it is. The rules and mechanics aren't too complicated, but there is a LOT of depth to understanding how all the components work together and how to work that to your advantage.

Quote:
- How hard is this game to learn?


To read the rules and successfully navigate through a game? Thirty minutes. To actually get a real grasp of what to do aside from treading the shallow strategies? A game or a game and a half. To actually get good at the game and be able to formulate plans and react intelligently to what's going on? Three or so games.

EDIT: I just realized that I answered "how long does it take to learn", but my answer still kind of applies.

It's not easy. The first play will put off a LOT of people, even seasoned gamers. You really have to play at least two games to fairly judge it just because you won't have probed the game enough after one runthrough. If you can grab a group with whom you can play a few games it'll really help.

Quote:
- How much does luck play a role in this game?


Almost none.

--ElSoy
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quohog the great
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madhujith wrote:
I'm finding it very hard to get a sense of how deep this game is. As I live in India no chance for me to play this game before hand other than buying it. But before that I wanted to know some facts about this game:

- Is this game as deep as say Caylus/Imperial/TtA etc?
- How hard is this game to learn?
- How much does luck play a role in this game?

Thanks for the direction.

Best,
Madhu


I haven't played the games you have mentioned but I consider this a game deep in strategy. I've played only a few games but timing is everything is this game and making the right opportunites come up are sometimes challanging. In would rate this game close to power grid in terms of depth.


Learnign the game was sluggish for my group. we trudged through the first game missing several rules, and after two games I finally found the rules online and the game clicked with me. I've only taught 3 new people and they seemed to pick up on the mechanics quick enough.


As for luck there are 3 three areas which have randomizatoin. 1) the docks which is offset by their replenishment. when someone goes to the shipping office to get more resourses out they chose which dock the random resourses go to, so there is some control there. 2) the guild hall which you draw random guild orders. this is offset by the role of guildmaster allowing you to draw two and perhaps put one back. 3) the chruch which gives favors to buy, this is offset by the limited number of favors available and that there are two to choose from.


I enjoy this game and i'm currently looking to add it to my collection even though i know that with some in my group that don't like deeper games it may not hit the table often.

Q
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Brian Moore
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This Play Aid helps when playing as well as the updated rules
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Tony Chen
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depth
I would say not as deep as Caylus nor Imperial. But, those are pretty high standards to be going up against. I think Masters of Venice is deep enough, as deep as Through the Ages which I feel is more complex than deep.

learning (the rules)
The game is fiddly with the peg movements, but once you understand the underlying concepts it's very intuitive and easy to remember the peg modifiers.

luck
There is luck in which cubes get drawn, and the guild order cards. But players should learn to play around these; I don'think its worse say than the tile draw in T&E. And if you are over-reliant on getting lucky with the guild orders you are probably playing poorly. Granted, it is possible for someone to get off to a lucky start and build up on that lead because Masters of Venice is a game where money gets turned into more money.

It pretty much falls within line of what I'd expect from a medium-heavy euro in terms of luck and depth. Why do you ask?

It is really fiddly at first though so I wouldn't recommend it for non-gamers. I am planning on writing my next review on Masters of Venice and explaining how to internalize its fiddliness.
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Tony Chen
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Quote:
You really have to play at least two games to fairly judge it just because you won't have probed the game enough after one runthrough.
It clicked with me after half a game. After two games I was sold. I really like the game. There have been stock games on trains, world domination, trains, and trains; but Masters of Venice is the first game I know of that uses stocks in a resource management euro.
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Madhujith Venkatakrishna
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Thanks guys for the inputs so far. Some clarifications from my side as to why am I interested in the depth, luck factor etc.

Depth- I have a minimum threshold level that I need to get interested in a game. Let me give you an example: Lost Cities is a good game that I'll play, but it has just one or 2 variations in strategies. Or say Carcassonne- great light game, but I need multiple things to manage, think in different directions, make some difficult decisions etc. Hope I'm making sense here.

Luck- Here I ask because a game that has good depth should not get decided based on the luck of draw. I really don't mind drawing cubes from a bag or a tile so long as they don't become the central part in deciding the winner. An example here could be Louis XIV- not in every game, but if 2 experienced players are playing then I've seen more often than not it comes down to the blind draw of the shields that is random at best which might decide the winner. Again one odd game like that is fine but if every game is like that then there is no point in thinking your strategies out right. BTW I like Neuroshima Hex, Samurai, T&E where we have to draw, but there is enough cushion in the game to offset a bad draw (say like poor tile draw)

But the inputs thus far has been really encouraging to get this game thanks for that!
 
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Andrew Miller
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Regarding the drawing of the guild orders and the cubes from the bag, those are elements of randomness that do not, at all, equate to luck.

The whole point of the game is to react to what becomes available and when, so the randomness of the cube draws actually dictates strategy rather than throwing the game to one player or another.

If you play poorly or gamble on something and lose, then your fate could indeed be decided by a good or bad guild order draw at the end of the game, but such a situation can only come to a head if you let it or encourage it, and it still won't take someone from last to first as you still have to play well to be in the running.

There is one tiny bit of luck in the initial stock draws; whoever draws the first or the last one in alphabetical order has an initial advantage to winning (or losing, as is often desired) ties during auction rounds. That element usually disappears into a player-controlled battle for tiebreakers, though.

--ElSoy
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